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Original poster

Can MNHQ set up a new discussion category called Feminism: sex & gender discussion (inclusive, non-GC)

867 replies

PlanetLuna · 04/04/2023 14:59

MN, will you please create a talk group/category of Feminism: sex & gender discussion (inclusive, non-GC)?

MN appears to currently have only 2 feminism categories:
Feminism: chat
Feminism: sex & gender discussions

But the Feminism: sex & gender category on MN is predominantly GC, with its emphasis on trans exclusion ideology. Feminists who do not subscribe to those beliefs are often unwelcome and treated with derision and hostility in discussions. Certainly not always as some GC posters do enjoy open, intellectual discussions but often enough that engagement can be toxic & intimidating all around.

It is almost impossible for non-GC feminists to find inclusive/non-GC feminist discussions, and we have to wade through unpleasant (for us) GC threads while attempting to do so.

GC feminism dominates on UK parenting sites in particular. However, inclusive/non-GC feminism is extremely popular around the world (especially in places like the US, NZ, and AU) and in the UK among younger feminists and those who do not see trans rights as a threat to women & girls’ safety. Many UK feminists are non-GC but may feel silenced on MN.

The addition of another category will help open up and improve MN discussions while reducing the toxicity and hostility that many feminists on both sides experience in discussions.

So I propose the following feminism discussion categories:
Feminism: chat (general)
Feminism: sex & gender discussions (GC)
Feminism: sex & gender discussion (inclusive, non-GC)

@MNHQ

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
ArabellaScott · 04/04/2023 17:28

ArabellaScott · 04/04/2023 17:27

What about the 'Feminist Chat' board, OP? Why not post there? It's supposed to be for 'non sex and gender feminism'.

Show quote history

Also, where was AmuseBish anything other than polite, please?

myveryownelectrickitten · 04/04/2023 17:27

PlanetLuna · 04/04/2023 16:48

I’d like to see discussions about gender that don’t devolve into derisory demands of “what is a woman” .

Some possible topics I’m interested in are:

Why gender inclusive language matters
The narrative that lesbians are inherently anti-trans is completely false per Just Like Us survey
feminism & neoliberalism
Discussions of whether the anti-gender movement aligns in many cases with the white suprematist movement.

That kind of thing.

Show quote history

@PlanetLuna you are free to post any of these on either the Feminism chat or Feminism S&G boards, or even on other boards. But how are you expecting everyone to agree with you?

Feminism and neoliberalism sounds a good topic. I might post on a thread on feminism and neoliberalism to point out how throughly neoliberal “choice” or liberal feminism is - especially “non-GC feminism”, which is often deeply intertwined with specifically American neoliberal ideas about autonomy and personal choice being “validated” above everything else; especially the validity of body modification, cosmetic surgery, sex work and porn. These are all highly neoliberal industries, and show how implicitly rightwing “non-GC feminism” is: even though it often pretends to be of the Left, it’s an individualist philosophy of the American left (which is to say, our centre right). Much current “left wing” thought is actually not very leftist at all.

Lots of material here for a thread! - we can discuss Marx and Engels, the development of feminism, the history of neoliberalism and identity politics, differences between the US and European leftist movements, and so on. There are plenty of women here who know a lot about Marxism and the history of feminism, the labour movement, American history and politics - let’s get cracking on the topic!

Or were you just looking for a thread on which everyone would agree with you that GC feminism is fash-adjacent or something like that? (Sure there are plenty of echo chambers all over the internet if that’s what you want.)

Why on earth would you think that any of the topics you’ve proposed only have one morally or factually right viewpoint and other opinions should be excluded? That would be the very definition of an echo chamber, wouldn’t it? Do you realise that the entire point of abstract discussion is critical engagement?

ArabellaScott · 04/04/2023 17:27

PlanetLuna · 04/04/2023 17:23

Thanks, @AmuseBish.

It’s not accurate to say all of your posts were “polite”. But sorry for use of “frothing” - I found your repeated questions a lot, especially as I was otherwise engaged.

I singled you out, unfairly perhaps, but I didn’t want to ignore you. It wasn’t just you - there are so many demands that I explain/justify/validate my request to MN.

I don’t mind debating issues around gender but that wasn’t the purpose or intention of today’s post. I just wanted to ask MN if a non-GC category could be set up because I thought the general feminism category wasn’t for ideological g&s stuff.

Show quote history

What about the 'Feminist Chat' board, OP? Why not post there? It's supposed to be for 'non sex and gender feminism'.

Original poster
PlanetLuna · 04/04/2023 17:25

RoseslnTheHospital · 04/04/2023 17:23

I don't think many people mind if the Op thinks we're all awful people, she seems pretty convinced of that already and I doubt anything anyone says would change that.

Show quote history

I don't think many people mind if the Op thinks we're all awful people, she seems pretty convinced of that already and I doubt anything anyone says would change that.

Why on earth would you make an untrue statement like that?

OP posts:
Somanyquestionstoaskaboutthis · 04/04/2023 17:25

ConstanceOcean · 04/04/2023 16:57

I'm genuinely interested to hear from non-GC feminists (although I have to agree that to my ears that is an oxymoron) because I struggle to understand the values and beliefs that inform a position that is comfortable with males identifying as women and is happy to adopt the term 'cis'.

I am a GC feminist but not like the majority on here it seems.

Tbh I don’t actually care if a man wants to wear a dress and make up or if a women wants to shave her hair off and wear baggy jeans and boxers.

I do care about separate changing rooms, toilets, sports etc.

I also hate the message that if you like or dislike X, Y, Z that must mean you have gender issues instead of just not being a stereotype.

However, I also live in the RL and know that trans issues are a thing and it’s increasing.
And therefore I would like to discuss ways to deal with certain issues without being piled upon.

Many posters on this board are black or white.
They think you need to think that all trans people should be banned and are dirty perverts or you’re someone who thinks mens rights come before womens and you want children to have hormone blockers.

I posted about my ‘trans’ students (most of which are F-M) but one was M-F which I wanted opinions on.
I cannot have these discussions in RL and it would be nice to have a place where I can discuss them without being accused of all sorts.

I haven’t been here long, and don’t read every thread, but everything I’ve read has been the same as you say you believe.

I have never seen anything saying all trans people should be banned or are dirty perverts, just comments as yours that they can wear what they like, call themselves what they like but stay out of our spaces.

I have only seen people saying someone thinks mens rights become before womens and you want children to have hormone blockers in response to people saying that they think that.

Eyerollcentral · 04/04/2023 17:25

PlanetLuna · 04/04/2023 17:23

Thanks, @AmuseBish.

It’s not accurate to say all of your posts were “polite”. But sorry for use of “frothing” - I found your repeated questions a lot, especially as I was otherwise engaged.

I singled you out, unfairly perhaps, but I didn’t want to ignore you. It wasn’t just you - there are so many demands that I explain/justify/validate my request to MN.

I don’t mind debating issues around gender but that wasn’t the purpose or intention of today’s post. I just wanted to ask MN if a non-GC category could be set up because I thought the general feminism category wasn’t for ideological g&s stuff.

Show quote history

There is no GC feminism category though. Do you never pause to think actually maybe they all have a point?

EmotionalSupportHyena · 04/04/2023 17:25

Thought experiment:

If MNHQ were to comply with this request and make a special new board for Feminists Who Think Men Can Be Women do you reckon MuskyElon, Marge the PIE, ConfusedLand and PleasingSuggestions would go to the new FWTMCBW board or do you think they would stay here with us?

I’m thinking the latter.

Original poster
PlanetLuna · 04/04/2023 17:23

AmuseBish · 04/04/2023 16:59

OP, are all questions asking 'what group of people are you referring to when you say 'woman'?' seen as 'derisory demands' by you? If not, and people want to know what you mean when you use the term, which is the best way of asking?

NB I am not frothing nor demanding anything, I am politely asking with intent to learn.

Thanks, @AmuseBish.

It’s not accurate to say all of your posts were “polite”. But sorry for use of “frothing” - I found your repeated questions a lot, especially as I was otherwise engaged.

I singled you out, unfairly perhaps, but I didn’t want to ignore you. It wasn’t just you - there are so many demands that I explain/justify/validate my request to MN.

I don’t mind debating issues around gender but that wasn’t the purpose or intention of today’s post. I just wanted to ask MN if a non-GC category could be set up because I thought the general feminism category wasn’t for ideological g&s stuff.

OP posts:
RoseslnTheHospital · 04/04/2023 17:23

Clementineorsatsuma · 04/04/2023 17:20

I see that the posters replying to OP with derision are self evidencing OPs reasoning.
You couldn't make it up.

I don't think many people mind if the Op thinks we're all awful people, she seems pretty convinced of that already and I doubt anything anyone says would change that.

RufusthefIoraImissingreindeer · 04/04/2023 17:23

PlanetLuna · 04/04/2023 14:59

MN, will you please create a talk group/category of Feminism: sex & gender discussion (inclusive, non-GC)?

MN appears to currently have only 2 feminism categories:
Feminism: chat
Feminism: sex & gender discussions

But the Feminism: sex & gender category on MN is predominantly GC, with its emphasis on trans exclusion ideology. Feminists who do not subscribe to those beliefs are often unwelcome and treated with derision and hostility in discussions. Certainly not always as some GC posters do enjoy open, intellectual discussions but often enough that engagement can be toxic & intimidating all around.

It is almost impossible for non-GC feminists to find inclusive/non-GC feminist discussions, and we have to wade through unpleasant (for us) GC threads while attempting to do so.

GC feminism dominates on UK parenting sites in particular. However, inclusive/non-GC feminism is extremely popular around the world (especially in places like the US, NZ, and AU) and in the UK among younger feminists and those who do not see trans rights as a threat to women & girls’ safety. Many UK feminists are non-GC but may feel silenced on MN.

The addition of another category will help open up and improve MN discussions while reducing the toxicity and hostility that many feminists on both sides experience in discussions.

So I propose the following feminism discussion categories:
Feminism: chat (general)
Feminism: sex & gender discussions (GC)
Feminism: sex & gender discussion (inclusive, non-GC)

@MNHQ

I'm very late to this thread and I haven't read it yet

But I just wanted to say 'no thank you' to this idea

I'll start reading the thread now ....looking forward to it

RedemptiveThursday · 04/04/2023 17:22

ConstanceOcean · 04/04/2023 16:57

I'm genuinely interested to hear from non-GC feminists (although I have to agree that to my ears that is an oxymoron) because I struggle to understand the values and beliefs that inform a position that is comfortable with males identifying as women and is happy to adopt the term 'cis'.

I am a GC feminist but not like the majority on here it seems.

Tbh I don’t actually care if a man wants to wear a dress and make up or if a women wants to shave her hair off and wear baggy jeans and boxers.

I do care about separate changing rooms, toilets, sports etc.

I also hate the message that if you like or dislike X, Y, Z that must mean you have gender issues instead of just not being a stereotype.

However, I also live in the RL and know that trans issues are a thing and it’s increasing.
And therefore I would like to discuss ways to deal with certain issues without being piled upon.

Many posters on this board are black or white.
They think you need to think that all trans people should be banned and are dirty perverts or you’re someone who thinks mens rights come before womens and you want children to have hormone blockers.

I posted about my ‘trans’ students (most of which are F-M) but one was M-F which I wanted opinions on.
I cannot have these discussions in RL and it would be nice to have a place where I can discuss them without being accused of all sorts.

Your views are actually exactly the same as most GC feminists. You're a bog standard TERF. If you announced that you care about changing rooms and toilets and sports on Twitter then you would be loudly denounced as a transphobe.

Which is largely the problem here. Views that are, in fact, entirely moderate have been smeared as being extreme and discriminatory.

The other part of the problem is that you have completely bought into that (mis)characterization. There's an obvious disconnect between your view of yourself as a Good Person (and who doesn't want to see themselves as a Good Person), and the fact that Good People don't hold extreme and discriminatory views. So you've resolved that by inventing a fictional divide between the Good TERFs and the Bad TERFs. When actually they are one and the moderate same.

Eyerollcentral · 04/04/2023 17:22

Clementineorsatsuma · 04/04/2023 17:20

I see that the posters replying to OP with derision are self evidencing OPs reasoning.
You couldn't make it up.

Show me the derision. Disagreement is not derision.

Helleofabore · 04/04/2023 17:21

PlanetLuna · 04/04/2023 17:03

@Helleofabore
Thanks for stalking me, but you don’t know what you’re talking about.

The post MN deleted wasn’t offensive as pointed out by the person who was the recipient of it.

The other threads I asked to have deleted. One was a positive comment about the King’s recent trip with a snarky comment about QC Camilla & a related photo. The others were positive but I had them all deleted to withdraw from the thread.

Show quote history

By the way, another really nice 'personal attack' tactic there. Frothing for one poster, stalking for me, I am happy to keep listing them.

Me 'stalking' you is what? An attempt to claim some kind of victimhood?

Who uses that kind of rhetoric on an MN discussion board where people can easily look and see evidence or significant lack thereof?

stayathomer · 04/04/2023 17:21

Would you be nice if someone has repeatedly labelled you with slurs and then in the OP continues to denigrate the board? If so, why?

Serious question?

Options: As in life these are try to talk to people rationally, attack or avoid/ignore/move on. I don’t know the thread you’re talking about but I don’t see this as an attack the way so many people seem to. Also there’s a difference between disagreeing and attacking. There’s people discussing on this thread, but more attacking and slagging off over the op’s head, which, no matter what was said I honestly find the lowest form because I’d hate my kids to ever encounter someone talking about them, but in a gang

thedogsmum · 04/04/2023 17:21

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ConstanceOcean · 04/04/2023 17:21

Seasonofthewitch83 · 04/04/2023 17:13

Obviously not. But MN can only move so fast, there are only so many times you want to read personal attacks before you think 'Why bother.'

This board and AIBU are probably the worst offenders for rule breaking. Again, just explaining why they can be seen as intimidating or offputting.

Show quote history

I agree.

There will always be the odd few on these boards but it’s such a shame when they get taken over by posters attacking or making fun of posters.

There are some posters that will have a proper discussion and I’ve learnt a lot on MN and used it when I’ve needed advice.

But there are some posters who make me think that I’m not going to bother posting if all I get is abuse and I believe there have been many MNers who felt the same and left the site.

Clementineorsatsuma · 04/04/2023 17:20

I see that the posters replying to OP with derision are self evidencing OPs reasoning.
You couldn't make it up.

TheSingingBean · 04/04/2023 17:20

ConstanceOcean · 04/04/2023 16:57

I'm genuinely interested to hear from non-GC feminists (although I have to agree that to my ears that is an oxymoron) because I struggle to understand the values and beliefs that inform a position that is comfortable with males identifying as women and is happy to adopt the term 'cis'.

I am a GC feminist but not like the majority on here it seems.

Tbh I don’t actually care if a man wants to wear a dress and make up or if a women wants to shave her hair off and wear baggy jeans and boxers.

I do care about separate changing rooms, toilets, sports etc.

I also hate the message that if you like or dislike X, Y, Z that must mean you have gender issues instead of just not being a stereotype.

However, I also live in the RL and know that trans issues are a thing and it’s increasing.
And therefore I would like to discuss ways to deal with certain issues without being piled upon.

Many posters on this board are black or white.
They think you need to think that all trans people should be banned and are dirty perverts or you’re someone who thinks mens rights come before womens and you want children to have hormone blockers.

I posted about my ‘trans’ students (most of which are F-M) but one was M-F which I wanted opinions on.
I cannot have these discussions in RL and it would be nice to have a place where I can discuss them without being accused of all sorts.

Thank you for replying Constance.

I may be wrong about this but I honestly don't think anyone here thinks trans people should be banned (even if such a thing was possible, and it surely isn't).

Neither do women think all trans people are 'dirty perverts', although I am convinced that for some trans people (largely M - F) there is a sexual component at play.

I think what there is however, is a lot of anger. Anger at being ignored, of having ideas and speech forced upon us, anger at the stealthy encroachment into our rights and boundaries.

I started out as curious but pretty much 'live and let live' about this stuff. But now I'm angry, because I believe trans ideology (NOT trans people) to be toxic, pernicious, harmful and anti-science. I think that's what makes this board a fiery place sometimes and while I do feel for people who find it bruising, I can't apologise for it.

I can appreciate that you are in a difficult position having GC views and also wanting to support your students. I hope that others with more experience in this area than me will come back with support, advice and suggestions.

Helleofabore · 04/04/2023 17:19

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 04/04/2023 17:08

I REALY think the OP should start an AIBU to think that GC feminism aligns with white supremacy thread

that would be ACE

she could lay out all her arguments clearly and define her terms

<happy sigh>

Ok. I have now got quite a few posts that I can copy directly debunking those. Plus I am amassing a collection of transcripts of what people have said versus the fucked up misrepresentations that have been spread and believed from wikipedia no less!

I can be ready for this!

RosaBonheur · 04/04/2023 17:18

So you want another "feminism: sex and gender" board, minus the people who disagree with you?

😆

Is there any reason why you can't just come onto the "feminism: sex and gender" board that already exists and make your arguments like an adult?

(That was a rhetorical question; we all know why you can't/won't/don't.)

EmotionalSupportHyena · 04/04/2023 17:18

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 04/04/2023 17:14

Argh in reply to this

<gives up>

Show quote history

You don’t have any responsibility for this amusing (to Art History nerds) malaprop, Bernard!

You merely copied and pasted from one of OP’s comments

😃

MelsMoneyTree · 04/04/2023 17:17

I know lots of young feminists who understand sex. They also understand ageism and gf-ery.

Fairislefandango · 04/04/2023 17:17

You don't get to create a space where nobody can disagree with you. Neither do people with gc views. The whole point of the Feminism: Sex and Gender Discussions is to have discussions about gender issues. People disagree and that's ok. Yes sure, there are more gc views on there than genderist views, but that's no surprise,since most people don't think TWAW. If you only feel safe in spaces where everyone has the same opinions as you, I'm sure there are plenty of places on the internet. I haven't seen any gc feminists asking for a space separate from genderists. Funny that.

Jom222 · 04/04/2023 17:15

Not today Satan

TrashyPanda · 04/04/2023 17:15

Happylittlechicken · 04/04/2023 17:10

That would be good. I’d put that thread on. My watchlist for sure 😀

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Me too!

go for it, @PlanetLuna