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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Can MNHQ set up a new discussion category called Feminism: sex & gender discussion (inclusive, non-GC)

867 replies

PlanetLuna · 04/04/2023 14:59

MN, will you please create a talk group/category of Feminism: sex & gender discussion (inclusive, non-GC)?

MN appears to currently have only 2 feminism categories:
Feminism: chat
Feminism: sex & gender discussions

But the Feminism: sex & gender category on MN is predominantly GC, with its emphasis on trans exclusion ideology. Feminists who do not subscribe to those beliefs are often unwelcome and treated with derision and hostility in discussions. Certainly not always as some GC posters do enjoy open, intellectual discussions but often enough that engagement can be toxic & intimidating all around.

It is almost impossible for non-GC feminists to find inclusive/non-GC feminist discussions, and we have to wade through unpleasant (for us) GC threads while attempting to do so.

GC feminism dominates on UK parenting sites in particular. However, inclusive/non-GC feminism is extremely popular around the world (especially in places like the US, NZ, and AU) and in the UK among younger feminists and those who do not see trans rights as a threat to women & girls’ safety. Many UK feminists are non-GC but may feel silenced on MN.

The addition of another category will help open up and improve MN discussions while reducing the toxicity and hostility that many feminists on both sides experience in discussions.

So I propose the following feminism discussion categories:
Feminism: chat (general)
Feminism: sex & gender discussions (GC)
Feminism: sex & gender discussion (inclusive, non-GC)

@MNHQ

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
TheShellBeach · 04/04/2023 17:44

TinselAngel · 04/04/2023 15:57

I'd like a board that's just for people to say how great I am and where nobody can disagree.

Working title;
Feminism: Tinsel is Great Discussion.

Sub-Section:
Was the Chalet School sexist and misogynistic?

Original poster
PlanetLuna · 04/04/2023 17:44

JoodyBlue · 04/04/2023 17:03

All of these questions could be/should be discussed. Expect robust challenge though. If you can't defend your position, under polite disagreement, you don't have a position. Learning to argue and articulate a view is essential to a society. It would be a good thing to do under the anonymity of mumsnet. There are some educated and highly intelligent people here, most of whom will offer their time to developing an understanding of other viewpoints. It is something really valuable that mumsnet FWR does. Agreement is not compulsory here.

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Hi @JoodyBlue
Thanks for your response.

I would expect and hope for a reasoned discussion.

I would hope that anyone engaging on those topics would do so with the understanding that some feminists simply do not agree with GC feminism and do not want those conversations derailed.

OP posts:
BernardBlacksMolluscs · 04/04/2023 17:44

Crikeyisthatthetime · 04/04/2023 17:41

Hold on, why restrict this idea to the feminist forum? Can't we create a new category in Style and beauty for people who aren't interested in bags? I'd like to post about fashion and stuff without ever having to encounter handbags, shoulder bags or (urgh) totes. And maybe one that doesn't mention clothes, for days when getting dressed is a challenge.
Oh, and a gardening subsection that doesn't include South facing gardens. Mine is North facing, and the many mentions of sun loving plants can all be a bit too much.

I’d be prepared to accept this if we could also exclude people who think it’s a good idea to get one’s colours ‘done’

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 04/04/2023 17:42

ArabellaScott · 04/04/2023 17:40

there is the 'mush' board, too.

Oh yes, that was quite the discovery

sporners corner is tragically under utilised

you could do your white supremacist spiel there OP?

stayathomer · 04/04/2023 17:42

Helleofabore
Agreed. (Shakes hand👍)

Crikeyisthatthetime · 04/04/2023 17:41

Hold on, why restrict this idea to the feminist forum? Can't we create a new category in Style and beauty for people who aren't interested in bags? I'd like to post about fashion and stuff without ever having to encounter handbags, shoulder bags or (urgh) totes. And maybe one that doesn't mention clothes, for days when getting dressed is a challenge.
Oh, and a gardening subsection that doesn't include South facing gardens. Mine is North facing, and the many mentions of sun loving plants can all be a bit too much.

ArabellaScott · 04/04/2023 17:40

there is the 'mush' board, too.

lechiffre55 · 04/04/2023 17:39

@BernardBlacksMolluscs
I know what you meant :) I just liked the juxtaposition your post highlighted.

In life GC women want sex based segregation. Gender borg want co-mingling.
In discussion it's reversed. GC women want co-mingled discussion. Gender borg want segregation.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 04/04/2023 17:38

Secondrater · 04/04/2023 17:36

Actually laughed out loud at this.

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'Not today Satan' did it for me.

bigbabycooker · 04/04/2023 17:38

So what you want is a board where you can compare GC women to Nazis and white supremacists without opposition?

Don't you think, OP, that your suggestion is why there is such a mess on trans rights (including a backlash that can't be helpful to trans people)?

I get that the GC feminism board can be a bit much, but if you really thought your ideas were good ones, healing ones, convincing ones, wouldn't you want more than an echo chamber where people talk about GC views in a derogatory fashion and are likely (due to lack of representation) to misrepresent what they are?

For general non GC centred feminism (ie feminism that is more general, so doesn't centre sex) there is a board for that.

midgemadgemodge · 04/04/2023 17:37

Also have to say that if you want keep GC voices off one board then you have just proven that you want to live in an echo chamber

Queenofscones · 04/04/2023 17:37

Vintagevixen · 04/04/2023 17:35

Even if OP got her own topic I think it would be just her talking to herself TBH - would be tumbleweed in there!

Well one does get the feeling that if anyone didn't agree with her she'd (presuming, here) ask for their post to be deleted.

It's the Easter holidays. Lots of teens at home looking for something to do...

Secondrater · 04/04/2023 17:36

Mocky · 04/04/2023 15:02

You'd need to call it something other than 'feminism' though. 'Men's rights'?

Actually laughed out loud at this.

onegirlandherdog · 04/04/2023 17:36

Yes! I would very much like this. Thank you.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 04/04/2023 17:35

lechiffre55 · 04/04/2023 17:33

GC women ask for it all the time. Sex based spaces to change away from males and prisons.
As for discussions, it's the other way around. Gender people aren't up for discussion with opposing views.

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Sorry yes, specifically with regard to talking

Vintagevixen · 04/04/2023 17:35

Even if OP got her own topic I think it would be just her talking to herself TBH - would be tumbleweed in there!

Queenofscones · 04/04/2023 17:35

The other threads I asked to have deleted. One was a positive comment about the King’s recent trip with a snarky comment about QC Camilla & a related photo. The others were positive but I had them all deleted to withdraw from the thread.

It sounds to me that you don't really understand the nature of message boards like this. People are allowed to disagree with you, and assertively too. What other people say to you doesn't actually matter. You don't know them, they don't know you. Sometimes it can be useful to think about what they've said because it can actually help you learn. People don't have to be nice to you.

Are you very young, @PlanetLuna ? Have you come from a culture where no one said anything in case they caused offence? A culture of trigger warnings and Be Kind? This is a feminist board full of second-wave feminists and thoughtful, often highly educated women. We aren't here to please each other. We expect you to come with a cogent and sustainable argument, based on evidence and reality. If all you can respond with is 'I want a board where people will agree with me' all I can suggest is that Instagram would probably suit you better. Or a Twitter bubble.

Helleofabore · 04/04/2023 17:34

myveryownelectrickitten · 04/04/2023 17:27

@PlanetLuna you are free to post any of these on either the Feminism chat or Feminism S&G boards, or even on other boards. But how are you expecting everyone to agree with you?

Feminism and neoliberalism sounds a good topic. I might post on a thread on feminism and neoliberalism to point out how throughly neoliberal “choice” or liberal feminism is - especially “non-GC feminism”, which is often deeply intertwined with specifically American neoliberal ideas about autonomy and personal choice being “validated” above everything else; especially the validity of body modification, cosmetic surgery, sex work and porn. These are all highly neoliberal industries, and show how implicitly rightwing “non-GC feminism” is: even though it often pretends to be of the Left, it’s an individualist philosophy of the American left (which is to say, our centre right). Much current “left wing” thought is actually not very leftist at all.

Lots of material here for a thread! - we can discuss Marx and Engels, the development of feminism, the history of neoliberalism and identity politics, differences between the US and European leftist movements, and so on. There are plenty of women here who know a lot about Marxism and the history of feminism, the labour movement, American history and politics - let’s get cracking on the topic!

Or were you just looking for a thread on which everyone would agree with you that GC feminism is fash-adjacent or something like that? (Sure there are plenty of echo chambers all over the internet if that’s what you want.)

Why on earth would you think that any of the topics you’ve proposed only have one morally or factually right viewpoint and other opinions should be excluded? That would be the very definition of an echo chamber, wouldn’t it? Do you realise that the entire point of abstract discussion is critical engagement?

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Don't 'liberal' feminists hate it when it is mentioned just how based in individualism their feminism is? I don't really know if this OP would be able to handle people pointing out the inconsistencies. But, hey, let's try it!

lechiffre55 · 04/04/2023 17:33

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 04/04/2023 17:30

I haven't seen any gc feminists asking for a space separate from genderists.

true dat

quite striking really

GC women ask for it all the time. Sex based spaces to change away from males and prisons.
As for discussions, it's the other way around. Gender people aren't up for discussion with opposing views.

Somanyquestionstoaskaboutthis · 04/04/2023 17:33

Somanyquestionstoaskaboutthis · 04/04/2023 16:36

@PlanetLuna I’m pretty new here too so I’m still trying to learn about all this. In your OP you say you want this new area for “those who don’t see trans rights as a threat to womens and girls’ safety”. Please can you explain this?

@PlanetLuna Im reposting my question in case you missed it. Thanks.

RoseslnTheHospital · 04/04/2023 17:32

@PlanetLuna because of the way that you have described the posters that post here? Your own descriptions.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 04/04/2023 17:30

I haven't seen any gc feminists asking for a space separate from genderists.

true dat

quite striking really

AlisonDonut · 04/04/2023 17:29

OP - you want a feminist board to talk specifically about sex, for people that don't think sex exists, and inclusive of penis people [even though sex doesn't exist] but not inclusive of vagina people that know sex exists [but your acknowledgement that sex must exist otherwise you'd not be able to exclude the vagina people that know sex exists?

Right?

Helleofabore · 04/04/2023 17:28

stayathomer · 04/04/2023 17:21

Would you be nice if someone has repeatedly labelled you with slurs and then in the OP continues to denigrate the board? If so, why?

Serious question?

Options: As in life these are try to talk to people rationally, attack or avoid/ignore/move on. I don’t know the thread you’re talking about but I don’t see this as an attack the way so many people seem to. Also there’s a difference between disagreeing and attacking. There’s people discussing on this thread, but more attacking and slagging off over the op’s head, which, no matter what was said I honestly find the lowest form because I’d hate my kids to ever encounter someone talking about them, but in a gang

So, you don't see it as an attack, but you want to tone police the people who do see the words that the OP has used in the OP and who have seen the language and denigration, sometime quite aggressive, they have used towards others on other threads.

I thank you for answering. I think we should agree to disagree on this. I don't believe that many people on this thread see this thread as ever being made with positive intentions.

jeffgoldblum · 04/04/2023 17:28

Oh op ! Stirring up s&g and the rf threads , this will not go well , if you thought criticism on the royal thread was bullying, your about to have your ass handed to you here!

The two threads are enough! , bad that they were split as it was, anyone who thinks feminism includes men , is no feminist and I'm shocked at your opinion but not surprised.