Page 17 | Can MNHQ set up a new discussion category called Feminism: sex & gender discussion (inclusive, non-GC)

EmotionalSupportHyena · 04/04/2023 18:39

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Humans can’t actually change sex and recognising this isn’t hatred.

Noicant · 04/04/2023 18:38

PlanetLuna · 04/04/2023 16:48

I’d like to see discussions about gender that don’t devolve into derisory demands of “what is a woman” .

Some possible topics I’m interested in are:

Why gender inclusive language matters
The narrative that lesbians are inherently anti-trans is completely false per Just Like Us survey
feminism & neoliberalism
Discussions of whether the anti-gender movement aligns in many cases with the white suprematist movement.

That kind of thing.

Show quote history

You can absolutely post those on chat. I think though OP you have to also consider that people will respond to those with their opinions. Some will be very serious and some will be mocking. I think you should probably consider what you are looking for. If you want conversations which are supportive of your perspective it will be difficult to find that generally on mumsnet. If you want a robust discussion some if that will involve robust debate.

Honestly I struggle with some of these

Gender inclusive language often reduces women to body parts, cervix havers, menstrators and it only refers to biological women, cervix haver will never refer to a TW, I’m not sure that TW for example would appreciate being referred to as prostate havers. Many feminists reject the term cis because it presupposes they believe that they have a gender identity distinct from their biology. To me woman is a material state of being not a feeling. i only conceive of myself as being female because of my body.

I don’t think Lesbians are anti- trans I think Lesbians by definition (same sex attracted) won’t date TW but may include TM for obvious reasons. They also have to consider the impact of changes in access to single sex spaces as women regardless of their sexuality.

As a BAME woman I can’t say I feel GC feminism is aligned at all with white supremacy. The reality is white supremicists are very unlikely to be on the side of women generally, they like controlling female sexuality (racial purity etc). Happening to agree on one thing (that biological sex is a material reality) does not mean agreeing for the same reason or on anything else. As adults I’m sure we can accept that sometimes people we do not like may share a view with us on one topic or subject, that doesn’t make someone a member of your team.

Feminism and neoliberalism I’d be interested in hearing your view on that.

I suspect you will get similar responses if you posted that on chat. You may find someone who agrees with your perspective but mumsnet cannot create a safe space for you.

midgemadgemodge · 04/04/2023 18:38

The only people who seem to think that this board thinks all trans people are evil are the ones who come on to tell us off

Regularsizedrudy · 04/04/2023 18:37

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bigbabycooker · 04/04/2023 18:37

Are you asking for a BBC style moderated debate, OP? One where sufficient people have to agree with you so it doesn't feel biased?

I'm not really a posey Parker worshipper, but I would say I am GC.

I look forward to meeting you on the general chat board and will robustly disagree with your white supremacist point, not because I don't believe TWAW for all purposes, but on the grounds of it being a bit basic and the type of argument that really shouldn't get you much beyond a basic A level pass. The argument that because you share a few views with someone (it's generally right wing) you must be a nazi or white supremacist or whatever is really feeble and very unoriginal in my view. I am a vegetarian and quite like dogs, so I must be the same as Hitler. I once voted Tory, so I must want disabled people to die. I have a religion, so I must hate abortion. You can cut it so many ways - lots of people from ethnic minority backgrounds are socially conservative, by the way, but their views clearly only count as a foil for making certain white liberals feel good about themselves. If you argue better, you might even win a few rounds with the GC feminists on their board :).

Helleofabore · 04/04/2023 18:37

AskMeMore · 04/04/2023 18:32

So if only feminism can be discussed here (which I have no issue with), why do so many support a woman (Posie Parker) who is clear she is not a feminist?

Perhaps ask that on one of the many threads that are still active.

Do you consider Maya Forstater a feminist? Do you understand that people can still be actively working for feminist outcomes even when they feel they have to reject feminism? And that some women feel they need to reject feminism due to the actions of other feminists?

I am sure that this has been gone through in detail on the many threads about Kellie Jay Keen on this board.

MummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking · 04/04/2023 18:36

PlanetLuna · 04/04/2023 14:59

MN, will you please create a talk group/category of Feminism: sex & gender discussion (inclusive, non-GC)?

MN appears to currently have only 2 feminism categories:
Feminism: chat
Feminism: sex & gender discussions

But the Feminism: sex & gender category on MN is predominantly GC, with its emphasis on trans exclusion ideology. Feminists who do not subscribe to those beliefs are often unwelcome and treated with derision and hostility in discussions. Certainly not always as some GC posters do enjoy open, intellectual discussions but often enough that engagement can be toxic & intimidating all around.

It is almost impossible for non-GC feminists to find inclusive/non-GC feminist discussions, and we have to wade through unpleasant (for us) GC threads while attempting to do so.

GC feminism dominates on UK parenting sites in particular. However, inclusive/non-GC feminism is extremely popular around the world (especially in places like the US, NZ, and AU) and in the UK among younger feminists and those who do not see trans rights as a threat to women & girls’ safety. Many UK feminists are non-GC but may feel silenced on MN.

The addition of another category will help open up and improve MN discussions while reducing the toxicity and hostility that many feminists on both sides experience in discussions.

So I propose the following feminism discussion categories:
Feminism: chat (general)
Feminism: sex & gender discussions (GC)
Feminism: sex & gender discussion (inclusive, non-GC)

@MNHQ

😂😂😂😂😂😂

Oh, are you serious?

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Laughing aside, I propose the following:

Feminism Chat
Feminism Sex and Gender Discussions
Try making your argument better
Grow Up
Realise that if a counter "GC" argument trumps your argument, it is not derision or hostility, you just have a shit argument.
Continue to post opposing viewpoints where we're all very fluffy and nice and why can't we just accept that unwanted penis haver into all our spaces and sports, and awards and prisons. Come on ladies, be nice. You had your rights for a bit, be grateful and let the men in. Who knows, you might convince us!
No, seriously, grow up
There's always Chat. If "non GC" feminism is as popular as you say, we'll all be swarming over there I'm sure. Make it popular enough and MN might consider your new category request. Put the work in!!

HTH.

EmotionalSupportHyena · 04/04/2023 18:36

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Don’t be daft, no one thinks there is an agenda that ALL gender transitioned people have signed up to.

HellonHeels · 04/04/2023 18:36

Mocky · 04/04/2023 15:02

You'd need to call it something other than 'feminism' though. 'Men's rights'?

😂

PronounssheRa · 04/04/2023 18:35

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Oh come on, no one is being trolled 🙄

Disagreed with, yes, sometimes robustly. But that's the thing with the real world you have to be able to cope with people having different opinions

Regularsizedrudy · 04/04/2023 18:35

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BernardBlacksMolluscs · 04/04/2023 18:34

EmotionalSupportHyena · 04/04/2023 18:33

Remember when we used to have FOUR boards in the Feminist section?

I can’t remember what they were all called because only the terfy one was busy enough to bother with.

Chat
Theory
Events
History

maybe?

there have been many attempts to police the naughty ladies

ilovemyspace · 04/04/2023 18:33

@Hepwo I think we are just entertained by the attempted land grab going on.

Totally agree - and isn't that what many trans- women are trying to do - land grab!

Helleofabore · 04/04/2023 18:33

ilovemyspace · 04/04/2023 18:28

@PlanetLuna I just want to say that I've always considered myself to be a feminist and have always livedmy life as I want to live it, despite gender restrictions.

I never considered the 'trans-movement' to be any threat at all to women and thought (and still think) that everyone should be able to live their life the way they want to live their life i.e. live and let live ....... BUT this board has made me question the demands made by some trans people. There are far-reaching consequences should these demands be met.

I have never taken the 'feminist' comments on these boards as gospel truth, but because of them I have started to research and actually THINK about the effects that some trans demands are having - and will have. Yes, sometimes the comments on this board are harsh and maybe not couched in the language that you want to hear ...... but they speak the truth.

People suffering from GENUINE body dysphoria are being ill served by the movement that has grown up in the name of 'trans-rights'

I don't understand why you need a 'safe space' to discuss your views with like-minded women and yet you deny other women a 'safe space' to discuss their rape/ domestic abuse or a 'safe space' to get changed in after swimming or a 'safe space' when trying on clothes in a shop or a 'safe space' for our daughters to use the toilet at school ........

Hey ilovemyspace

You know, if you go off and do the research for yourself and it makes you really consider what is going on. That is really all that any poster on these threads can ask for.

It is the posts that simply repeat unevidenced opinion that is false, or is misrepresentation of the truth or is simply posted to shame posters that get push back.

EmotionalSupportHyena · 04/04/2023 18:33

Remember when we used to have FOUR boards in the Feminist section?

I can’t remember what they were all called because only the terfy one was busy enough to bother with.

Chat
Theory
Events
History

maybe?

AskMeMore · 04/04/2023 18:32

So if only feminism can be discussed here (which I have no issue with), why do so many support a woman (Posie Parker) who is clear she is not a feminist?

RinklyRomaine · 04/04/2023 18:32

ilovemyspace · 04/04/2023 18:28

@PlanetLuna I just want to say that I've always considered myself to be a feminist and have always livedmy life as I want to live it, despite gender restrictions.

I never considered the 'trans-movement' to be any threat at all to women and thought (and still think) that everyone should be able to live their life the way they want to live their life i.e. live and let live ....... BUT this board has made me question the demands made by some trans people. There are far-reaching consequences should these demands be met.

I have never taken the 'feminist' comments on these boards as gospel truth, but because of them I have started to research and actually THINK about the effects that some trans demands are having - and will have. Yes, sometimes the comments on this board are harsh and maybe not couched in the language that you want to hear ...... but they speak the truth.

People suffering from GENUINE body dysphoria are being ill served by the movement that has grown up in the name of 'trans-rights'

I don't understand why you need a 'safe space' to discuss your views with like-minded women and yet you deny other women a 'safe space' to discuss their rape/ domestic abuse or a 'safe space' to get changed in after swimming or a 'safe space' when trying on clothes in a shop or a 'safe space' for our daughters to use the toilet at school ........

Indeed. Amazing how many men and libfems need 'safe spaces' online but women aren't allowed safe spaces irl. What a bizarre request. This is one of the only places women can express themselves online; and even this is subject to targeted reporting and some irritating rules about terminology eg the Acronym which Gets male People angry. The LGBT boards exist, the feminism chat boards, the rest of the internet...what's the point in another one?

Random789 · 04/04/2023 18:32

Also (and I'm sure this point has already been made, but the FT is to long for me to RTFT), the whole flaming internet is a place where we experience huge and massive hostility, trolling, stalking, agression, doxxing etc for expressing any kind of GC opinion. So how about a deal: This one little tiny oasis of GC-majority becomes more welcoming to non-GC views in return for the whole flaming internet dialing down its persecution of GC views.

dimorphism · 04/04/2023 18:31

Also, I think you're confusing 'tolerant and supportive of' with 'blindly agreeing with'.

No-one is intolerant of non GC posters on here. We'll argue with them because we don't agree with them, but we don't report, we let comments stand. It's the other side doing the reporting and deleting comments almost all the time.

BlueHeelers · 04/04/2023 18:31

Oh dear, someone is disagreeing with @PlanetLuna and so she needs to have a whole forum set up for her!

It’s pretty divisive to imply - by the categories you suggest - that feminism that is sceptical about gender stereotypes is not inclusive.

Who are you @PlanetLuna to judge who is inclusive and who isn’t?

Original poster

PlanetLuna · 04/04/2023 18:29

nepeta · 04/04/2023 17:59

I was taught that feminism is the social justice movement which is fundamentally about women's rights based on the fact that the three axes of exploitation are based on sex, race, and class. It should also be intersectional in the sense that sexism and misogyny women experience are also affected by their membership in a race and/or class category. But if you erase the sex altogether, as is now happening among the new intersectional and inclusive feminism then you have erased the whole central point of feminism and you should really call your movement something different.

I began as a very inclusive feminist when I thought that transwomen can be included in the social category of 'women' when others assume they are of the female sex, as they would then experience most of the same things all women do except for reproductive discrimination. Based on the same thinking, transwomen would be socially counted as men if they pass as they would be earning male privilege, including higher wages.

I was too naive to assume that transwomen and transmen wouldn't require the total abolition of anything having to do with sex, and I was too naive to realise that there would also be a nonbinary category of people having their cake and eating it, too, which would demand the same thing.

Once that became clear, those demands that is, I could no longer be inclusive as my not having those boundaries for my feminism let everything in it drip out and would leave me with nothing that could be fought for (thigh-high socks and short skirts as signs of womanhood is insufficient).

Indeed, as many inclusive and intersectional feminists so often tell us, women might have very little in common with each other which is one of the reasons intersectionality matters in analysis. But once you erase sex from this debate, the remaining group certainly would have nothing in common that it wouldn't have in common with some random group of people.

So for me the point of feminism would be lost. And this is why I agree with many on this thread who argue that what the OP asks for might well be worth having, but it's not feminism. It's something else, most likely trans and nonbinary issues.

@nepeta
I’m trying to catch up on responses & jumping around a bit.
Not sure if I replied to you earlier, but thank you for your thoughtful reply.

OP posts:

dimorphism · 04/04/2023 18:29

PlanetLuna · 04/04/2023 18:18

Thanks for that, @AskMeMore.

I’m confident there are many who don’t agree with me who would engage constructively and in good faith on a board that is tolerant and supportive of non-GC points of view.

Show quote history

That board is Feminism Chat - that is the whole point of that board. Why don't you go over there and post to your heart's content if you don't like it here?

Also, people disagreeing with you online is not being 'unsafe'. Being attacked in a toilet as the 10 year old victim of Dolatowski was is being unsafe.

If you don't like a discussion online then you don't have to stay in that chat room. There is a specific other board for the discussion you want already and loads of other boards on MN including Chat and AIBU.

midgemadgemodge · 04/04/2023 18:29

Rest assured - toxicology tests have shown no poisons being administered on this board !

ilovemyspace · 04/04/2023 18:28

@PlanetLuna I just want to say that I've always considered myself to be a feminist and have always livedmy life as I want to live it, despite gender restrictions.

I never considered the 'trans-movement' to be any threat at all to women and thought (and still think) that everyone should be able to live their life the way they want to live their life i.e. live and let live ....... BUT this board has made me question the demands made by some trans people. There are far-reaching consequences should these demands be met.

I have never taken the 'feminist' comments on these boards as gospel truth, but because of them I have started to research and actually THINK about the effects that some trans demands are having - and will have. Yes, sometimes the comments on this board are harsh and maybe not couched in the language that you want to hear ...... but they speak the truth.

People suffering from GENUINE body dysphoria are being ill served by the movement that has grown up in the name of 'trans-rights'

I don't understand why you need a 'safe space' to discuss your views with like-minded women and yet you deny other women a 'safe space' to discuss their rape/ domestic abuse or a 'safe space' to get changed in after swimming or a 'safe space' when trying on clothes in a shop or a 'safe space' for our daughters to use the toilet at school ........

nepeta · 04/04/2023 18:27

onegirlandherdog · 04/04/2023 18:06

And completely agree with poster above that there needs to be much more robust discussion about the CG overlaps with far right groups - like PA in UK and Proud Boys in US - and anti-feminist/anti-abortion groups, especially amongst the hordes of GC men on twitter. There's definitely a threat to women's bodily autonomy looming and it isn't from trans people!

But how do you stop those groups from promoting some ideas which match gender critical views? They come at the topic from the opposite side, needing a name for the female sex class to keep us down while we need that name to fight their attempts to keep us down.

Another way of looking at this question is that the far right groups agree with trans activists on the importance of sexist gender stereotypes about how women should behave, though they differ in who should be allowed to (or be forced to) act out those stereotypes. So we should also have a discussion on the clear overlap between far right and gender identity views about what a woman is.

Which I am not seeing anywhere outside Mumsnet and Ovarit and a few Twitter accounts.