Can MNHQ set up a new discussion category called Feminism: sex & gender discussion (inclusive, non-GC)

Well I have missed this. Most of the people I've encountered in UK GC are center left - proper left leaning not the left the US has.

I googled the groups and they seem to be US based? Are they at UK events as well ?

Thing is though they may agree with my GC views - I expect that one of the only places our world view intersect - they may be right on one issue for their own reasons - doesn't invalidate my concerns about women rights and safeguarding.

I think you should call it “pro trans” or “anti women” rather than “inclusive”. It’s not inclusive of women’s rights

And I cannot tell you how much it makes my blood boil to see trans people - particularly trans women - scapegoated as 'groomers' or 'predators', distracting everyone from people who are actual predators

But some trans people ARE actual predators.

Isla Bryson, for starters.

No thank you

@nepeta The reason far right groups overlap with GC groups is because a key part of fascist ideology is about policing gender and denying bodily autonomy to women - trans or cisgender - and basically anyone else who doesn't fit a strict, readily identifiable gender binary. Which is exactly what GC people are also doing. It's also not new that far right ideologies use 'protection of women and girls' as a cover for their ideologies, nor is it unusual for anti feminist and far right groups to have prominent women among them. US anti abortion groups are often headed up by women, for instance. And I cannot tell you how much it makes my blood boil to see trans people - particularly trans women - scapegoated as 'groomers' or 'predators', distracting everyone from people who are actual predators. For all these reasons I will be standing in solidarity with trans people, and supporting feminist, inclusive and progressive spaces. The one space where I can guarantee to be free of the far right, free of gender stereotypes and a progressive safe for people to express themselves are LGBTQ spaces. They've certainly saved me in the past and I'll be remembering that.

Anyway I've answered you in good faith, which isn't easy when I've had numerous people @-ing me with ridicule and sarcasm etc. Makes me realise how extra awful it must be to be trying to exist as trans person in this current climate, I guess!!!

Is this the same as the 'Hitler was vegetarian so all vegetarians are Nazis' argument?

The only provable link with Hearts of Oak is with transactivists.

That should read 'mumsnet's legal team' - it's hard to type while the bus is going over speedbumps 😳

You have missed the support of Proud Boys, Hearts of Oak and CPAC at Standing for Women events?

Not being funny but I'm not really in favour of a board where I can be libellously smeared as being a nazi for s&g but I'm not allowed to defend myself. I somehow don't think the OP would like it the other way round and mumsnet's woulwouldn't like it either way.

@AskMeMore

Yes, that well known former donor to the Labour Party, jk Rowling. Massively right wing. Most GC posters and activists are left wing.

Can you please post the evidence that ”The gender critical movement in Britain is steeped in associations with the far right”?

Because this statement in relation to what people refer to as gender critical feminism, doesn’t stand up to scrutiny at all.

I look forward to seeing the links that evidence this.

I think that the OP is conflating reasonable discussion and committed views with bullying. Bullying is defined as personal vitriolic attack and I have not seen any evidence of that from GC posters; in fact there are many articulate compelling arguments made in protecting women's rights.

To state sex is real and immutable is to my mind a truth and is in way a bullying statement. It is a strategy to prevent opinion by stating any discourse of the consequences of sex not being real as 'bullying'. To prevent opinion is scary in a pluralist democratic society founded on liberal values.

If you want to call gc feminists 'far right', best start another thread, eh?

This is the kind of patronising reply I hate.
The gender critical movement in Britain is steeped in associations with the far right. Second wave feminism was clearly on the left.
There is a massive difference between the gender critical movement and feminism.

@PlanetLuna - you mention lesbians. Do you think that a lesbian who is exclusively same sex attracted, is transphobic if they refuse to have penetrative sex with a male bodied ‘lesbian’ who still has his penis? Is it OK for male bodied ‘lesbians’ to exchange advice on how to breach the ‘cotton ceiling’ - ie. how to get into lesbians’ knickers?

Do you see the difference between sex and gender? Sex is biological reality, and cannot be changed - only cosmetic changes can happen. Gender is the societal expectations of men and women, boys and girls - the stereotypes - girls like pink, dollies, playing house, wear tutus and pink, and boys are rufty-tufty, physically active, like getting dirty, playing sports like football and rugby, and abhor pink or any gentle activities. Men can’t be nurses or look after children, women can’t be engineers or CEOs.

It is the gender stereotypes that women in particular have been fighting against for decades, so now it is completely normal for women to wear trousers, eschew make up and fluffy pink things, and play ‘rough’ sports - and even get paid as much as the men. And if you had asked me 5 years ago, I would have said that battle was largely won - and then the trans rights activists turned up with their rigid adherence to gender stereotypes, and their insistence that if you like things in the feminine stereotype list, you must be female, no matter what your biological sex, and if you don’t like the feminine stereotypes, you must be a boy.

Cant you see how regressive this is? Don’t you think it is better to tell people that they can wear and like whatever they like, and it does NOT define them, nor does it mean they should be condemned to a life dependant on medical and surgical treatment.

Are you happy for vulnerable women to be locked up with violent, male bodied rapists and sexual predators - or do the ‘lady feelings’ of these men outweigh the safety of women?

Does a rape survivor need re-education if she doesn’t want to share her trauma counselling group with a male bodied individual?

How can you protect women and girls if you can’t define them?

I saw it asked upthread what the old subtopics for FWR were.
I remember it as:
feminism: support
feminism: activism
feminism: theory
feminism: books (or possibly reading?)

@Helleofabore indeed, it makes me wonder why the liberal feminists like the OP haven’t yet noticed why there might be connections between “liberal feminism” and “neoliberalism” 🤣

As for the far right supremacism notion - hasn’t the OP noticed that most U.K. GC feminists are left wing, but in the traditional sense of a politics of class analysis? Doesn’t seem like you know much about the U.K. context, @PlanetLuna. It might actually be really informative to you to find out more about GC/second wave feminism, most of which has its roots in Engels and cultural materialism. “Supremacism” is a largely U.S. concept which doesn’t make much sense in the U.K. context.

I've been gender critical and non-conforming since I was 6 years old. I had to fight to get into construction in the 1980s.

I don't have a 'strong GC point of view', I have a whole 50 years of living it and fighting it. It flows through me like Brighton does through a stripey stick of rock.

Oh, we're here. Vipers, hyenas, all sorts.

The more insults we get, the more I know we're having an impact, tbh.

Not meaning to derail this thread, but there's an LGBT Children board which is specifically meant for these types of questions, among others. I don't see how parenting a trans son is inherently a "feminist" topic, so it sounds like that poster accidentally chose a wrong board (unless there was a specifically feminist element to the question). In cases like that, the OP can tag their own post and request a mod to move it.

Across the site, you see very direct, contentious posts on the more general, fast-moving boards like AIBU or Chat and perhaps more considered, targeted advice on, e.g., Relationships, Step-Parenting, Teenagers and other more granular topic boards. MN is a large site that attracts both positive and negative attention and is targeted a lot by people who for whatever reason do not like a woman-owned site that encourages women to talk without male supervision. MN's model also makes it very easy to register, post, name-change, etc. so you get all sorts.

You may see a lot you find blunt or even rude or wrong, but personal attacks aren't allowed and no one is allowed to call you a troll. Also, of course, transphobic content is not allowed. HOWEVER, the mods don't cruise the threads looking for violations, they rely on users to report - so if no one reports a problem post right away, it may stay up for a bit. This isn't unique to MumsNet, it's one of a number of common methods of running a forum and it may not suit you. (Personally I prefer it to heavy up-front moderation or the unavoidable delays on pre-moderated sites, but everyone's different). Sometimes you have to focus on the replies that apply to/are useful to you and leave the rest.

Finally, I doubt there are actual hyenas posting here, but as MNHQ has been running a user census, I'm sure they'll let us know. And, if the situation warrants, provide a hyena emoji!

That's a beautiful January description.

I post all my feminist threads on this board because for me, feminism is entirely about sex and gender and I can't see what within feminism does not include sex and/or gender.

Sorry that there is a serious cohort of women that don't take bullshit lying down?

I'm only a few pages in but I've seen so many more posters here validating this board than I have seen in a long time.

Don't underestimate the power of this place.

Yes the standards applied to a discussion may be far more forthright than people would prefer.

I would suggest that women being forthright is women being their best selves.

I don't care if you agree with me or not.

Lie about women and I will pick you up, because lying is damaging.

OP I do get what you are saying. The people who post regularly on this board do mostly have a strong GC point of view.

However I'm not sure how your new board would work? Would anyone posting a GC view simply be deleted? I don't think that's done on any MN board, except the odd deletion where someone is being particularly horrible (usually not even then!). I can't think of any boards where people are not allowed to post with a particular viewpoint.

I think you could post on Feminism Chat. Or perhaps even on AIBU if you're brave enough - more posts on sex & gender are being allowed to stand there now. However - as with all of MN - you can't really request that people are only allowed to reply if they agree with you!

912 doesn't work in Europe - North America (US, Canada and parts of the Caribbean) only.

112 is the European emergency number.

This has been a public service message, not a derail.

not true. In Germany at least (and as i wrote i think maybe other parts of Europe) in the GSM network and in some areas from landline, 911 (not 912) is automatically transferred to either 110 or 112 which are the German emergency numbers