Can MNHQ set up a new discussion category called Feminism: sex & gender discussion (inclusive, non-GC)

No feminist exists who isn't critical of gender surely?

@EmotionalSupportHyena Julie Bindel was hanging out with the Heritage Foundation and Kathleen Stock was praising anti - abortion campaigners on twitter!! JK Rowling praised Matt Walsh - a fascist who openly discusses the fertility of teenage girls - in front of her millions of twitter followers. I can tell which people are the feminists and it isn't this lot.

@onegirlandherdog but this is the biggest pile of arrant bollocks about “GC” beliefs, I’m afraid. (I’m actually embarrassed for you - in reality they’re the exact opposite of this.) Sounds like it would be good for you to listen to the women on here, and maybe read some second wave feminism?

You said earlier upthread that you’re in your fifties and found LGBTQ+ spaces very accepting. If that’s true, you know perfectly well that T was only added to LGB in the 90s, and Q was a slur until very recently, so there certainly weren’t “LGBTQ+” spaces until well after the Millennium. And, I don’t know where you live, but as a bi/lesbian woman in her 40s who used to live and work in SoHo in the 90s and early 2000s, I was rarely accepted in any gay male venue and I was also not particularly accepted in L venues — most so-called “LGB” spaces were actually very intolerant of bisexuals. There were only a few “inclusive” bars even in SoHo which you could drink in (as a visibly non-butch woman) without getting ostracised.

And it was routine for tourists to shout “queers” at you in the street if you were with anyone who looked like they might be a bit gay (one reason why I don’t like the label “queer” - heard it too often in that context). So even way back when, gay spaces were not always great for women tbh. I’m surprised you didn’t encounter this. Where were you going?

Indeed @Whaeanui , very true , seems odd a new poster would choose the two most ardent topics then post inflammatory content and then complain about bullying! .
And fyi @PlanetLuna , your post was deleted because it was technically a personal attack on me !
I didn't find it offensive or report it , either mn took it down or someone else reported it.
When I said I didn't think it broke talk guidelines, does not mean I condone or agreed with it!

When you think of all the GNC Lesbians who have been key in identifying the conflict of rights issue and getting it to a wider audience, it seems pretty ludicrous to say that GC feminists enforce gender stereotypes!

Julie Bindel? Kathleen Stock? Sheila Jeffreys? Julia Long? Anne Ruzylo? Linda Bellos? Allison Bailey? Rhona Hotchkiss? Bev Jackson? Kate Harris?

Not exactly rightwing tradwives, are they? 😂

And FWIW, many of the most “gender critical” second wave feminists were black. Being critical of gender is a position derived from Marxism, where for Marxist feminists gender is the ideological system that props up sex oppression.

Far right? You’re really badly misinformed and you’d be well served to actually listen to what GC / second wave feminism is all about. Sounds pretty patronising to dismiss what people are telling you they believe. Where’s all the “people are who they say they are” when it’s you wanting to stereotype and misinform…?

Cakes, curtains, pot plants............ how cosy this board is becoming!

NAH. I like it here. Other sites allowed me to be attacked simply because I am not a TWAW. A friend and I have a simple question and answer site for young girls. We explore the areas around puberty and periods. Apparently our small site caught the attention of some TWAW folks. We were told we were discriminatory simply we because we chose to say that periods were very much a part of being a woman. How dare we!

Except that this is rubbish. You’re just wrong, I’m afraid: and if you don’t like it when people point out that you’re wrong and call it “patronising”, god help you. What do you think gender critical feminism is, then? It’s entirely based on second wave feminist criticisms of gender as oppressive - that’s what it literally means.

I just can't see why the trans activists who want to enforce gendered roles on people don't understand what gender critical means. You have a permission or vagina which is not relevant to your personality or interests, we don't believe in gender! It's the trans people and far right who want to make people fit in a binary not gc people.

GC feminism dominates on UK parenting sites in particular.

Mothers in "recognising how female biology is weaponised against women" shocker!

inclusive/non-GC feminism is extremely popular [...] among younger feminists

So amongst women who haven't had kids yet.

It's almost as if having a child grow inside your very female uterus, and having to push it out through your very female vagina or else be sliced open like a gutted pig, make women highly aware of just how much their female bodies do in fact affect their lives.

And no. Make your own platform. how entitled do you have to be to demand space on someone else's platform? I'd say, about as entitled as you have to be to demand access to the single-sex spaces of the opposite sex.

What's the betting that the OP is male?

The reason far right groups overlap with GC groups is because a key part of fascist ideology is about policing gender and denying bodily autonomy to women - trans or cisgender - and basically anyone else who doesn't fit a strict, readily identifiable gender binary. Which is exactly what GC people are also doing

I don't think you understand the GC position. Gender stereotypes should be consigned to history, no one should be constrained by outdated notions of girl stuff/boy stuff.

@onegirlandherdog Nope, not policing anyone's gender or denying bodily autonomy as long as they're old enough to understand the consequences of any changes they make. Just aware that you can't change your sex.

Far right: think your sex determines the gender roles you must follow. Don't like same sex attraction.
Far left: think your gender expression determines the sex you must be. Believe same sex attraction is akin to racism, is genital fetishism.
Gender critical feminists: think your sex is a biological reality and you can be whoever you want to be. Support same sex attraction.

We're very reasonable, accepting and stuck right in the middle of bigotry on both sides.

@PlanetLuna - I think sometimes the sheer volume of posts - particularly if they are disagreeing with you, and often vehemently - will feel like an onslaught. It is hard in an online environment to parse "volume" from "pile on", because they can feel the same.

On the other hand, I think that the anonymity of a forum means that many responses will be harsher: while some posters may well be happy to repeat what they have said to your face in one-to-one discourse, others would not. We lose the human-ness of people in a virtual world - and with it we tend to lose a sense of humanity. (This is true on all sides to some extent, but is, for me, especially true on one particular side - hence the need for this forum.)

If you can stand the cut and thrust, and not feel like everything is directed at you personally (because it isn't: no-one knows you; separate your words from you as a person), then it's easier to approach debate here with a sense of equanimity. And if that feels untenable, then there is always the "Report" link.

[New username; old, old poster.]

policing gender and denying bodily autonomy to women - trans or cisgender - and basically anyone else who doesn't fit a strict, readily identifiable gender binary. Which is exactly what GC people are also doing.

But this is rubbish, I'm afraid. Where did you get this from?

Haha its tra and mra who are the fascists it's why they police gender and tell boys they can't behave like girls! Gc don't believe in gender so there is no specific way to act you just have a body. How the fuck people don't get this I don't know! How homophobic can you get, trans is so offensive to feminism and gay and non conforming people.

@onegirlandherdog

I think you also might need to do some reading on the predation point. 60% of trans women in prisons have committed sex offences against women or children. That is not the same as saying that all trans women are predators, but what it is saying is that some people (whether trans or not) will abuse identity.

These right wing US groups don't have "GC" views, as in, they are emphatically not gender critical. They are gender supporters. They support gender roles and want to enforce them for themselves and usually for others, often seeing such roles as innate, "natural", appropriate etc etc. They support a gender hierarchy where those gender roles are used to subordinate women, and anyone of either sex who doesn't conform to their ideal.

The only overlap is the acceptance of biological sex as real.

I'm a feminist (GC) who disagrees with some things regarding Posie Parker, most specifically with her understanding, or lack, of American politics and culture. I also argue quite vehemently with posters who love to fawn over the lastest unoriginal thought by Matt Walsh. I've also had some very rude comments sent my way. But I just dealt with it, I guess. I believe strongly in freedom of speech and civil debate. You learn nothing living in an echo chamber.

We don't all agree here, and you do need a thick skin when going against the grain. However, I find it interesting that the not-GC topics are the only ones that get people asking for its own safe space. OP, feel free to post but don't expect agreement, but I would encourage you to hone your arguments if you feel like staying.

@onegirlandherdog - GC women don't believe in gender. It's bullshit.

Your view that it is somehow connected to sex is much more aligned with far right views than mine.

Sex is biological. Gender is bollocks. Dress however you want, have sex with anyone who will have you. Humans can't change sex.

Unfortunately, your post is just speculation to back up your own prejudice. Hearts of Oak is just one e
example of a far right group has concrete, demonstrable links with transactivists but none with SFW.

Funnily enough @PlanetLuna I pointed this out to you earlier and as you know, @jeffgoldblum and I tend to come from different perspectives on the royal board but are saying the same thing to you! You’re fine over there in very heated discussions with the vast majority not agreeing with your views, as you often point out and I don’t think you’ve called for that board to be divided up? You’ve started this thread and insulted the entire board and regular users from the get go but are surprised or offended by the tone of responses? I think you knew exactly what response you would get and just like the drama of wading into a board where your view is the minority opinion. It’s literally what you do every day. No issue with that myself but I just think your thread is disingenuous and deliberately goady.

@onegirlandherdog

I think maybe you should do a bit more reading. GC women don't oppose anyone's bodily autonomy (they just want single sex spaces) and they want to be free of gender stereotypes (which is where the far right and trans campaigners intersect - if you ask Eddie Izzard what makes him a "girl" you'll get a spiel about femininity and lipstick, basically, or if you ask Sam Smith about being a wife he will talk about doing domestic tasks).

If you read the U.K. communist party manifesto, you'll see they oppose self ID because genderism is used to oppress women. But they are, of course, very right wing communists!

@onegirlandherdog

a key part of fascist ideology is about policing gender and denying bodily autonomy to women - trans or cisgender - and basically anyone else who doesn't fit a strict, readily identifiable gender binary. Which is exactly what GC people are also doing.

I appreciate you probably won't want to reply to this, but can you explain how it is that GC people are also policing people who don't fit a strict identifiable gender binary?