Can MNHQ set up a new discussion category called Feminism: sex & gender discussion (inclusive, non-GC)

‘ I agree that misogyny definitely impacts teenage girls in a way which needs to be tackled by facing the actual issue: misogyny.’ How can you tackle misogyny unless you know what a woman is?
I only mentioned your upbringing because you did. You made the point that you had been brought with expectations of how women should behave, that’s why I referenced it.
‘"It’s not debatable. That is what a woman is" is slightly ironic considering all the criticisms of #nodebate on here. I feel like what you're saying is the exact same of what people on here accuse trans rights activists of doing: shutting down conversations. It's just you think yours is the right way of having no debate...because doesn't everyone?!’ How can you debate biological reality? Tell me what you think the points are that challenge the definition of woman.

@Eyerollcentral This feels like it's the horseshoe effect of two opposing views agreeing on some things, but coming at it from different angles. I agree that misogyny definitely impacts teenage girls in a way which needs to be tackled by facing the actual issue: misogyny.
I'll ignore the personal comments about my childhood (come on...really?!?) but I will say that "It’s not debatable. That is what a woman is" is slightly ironic considering all the criticisms of #nodebate on here. I feel like what you're saying is the exact same of what people on here accuse trans rights activists of doing: shutting down conversations. It's just you think yours is the right way of having no debate...because doesn't everyone?!

No, women have been discriminated against because of their sex. Societal expectations of ‘feminity’ have been imposed on women as a result of the disproportionate power of men in society. The ‘associated social construct of feminity’ was a by product of patriarchy, sex alone is the basis of discrimination against women.
There is only one definition of woman - adult human female. It’s not debatable. That is what a woman is.
‘ We'd be having the same conversations about awful men, but with trans people removed from the equation.’ Trans women are men, so they should be excluded from the equation. Trans men are women so they very much should be included, as should the discussion around why the largest increase in those reporting a trans identity are teenage girls - why do so many girls think life would be better if they weren’t female? When I was teen girl the big issue was eating disorders, generally triggered at the onset of puberty which funny enough is when most of these teens begin saying they are male. Do you think that’s a coincidence?
’The men actually causing harm would still be walking around, but years have passed where people have wasted their time talking about this.’ Yes and deluded trans women will still men. Even after they are dead they will still be readily identified as men as it is evident from their bones. I find it bewildering that your idea to tackle it is to say to women look just let them say they are women rather than confront with trans women with the truth that they are men. I think you need to examine how much of your childhood conditioning prevails as you still seem to think that the girls should shut up and let the boys do what they want.
’It would all come out at the same place so why not just get there faster.’ But at the end you wouldn’t be a woman, you’d be a ‘cis woman’, a ‘birthing parent’ as opposed to a mother, etc. And btw the terrible men would still be there but now they will be sitting beside you in every single female space telling you that you must recognise them as women.

Trans women are ALWAYS appropriating womanhood, as they are men. It’s always a pretence, because they are men.
‘So if you have crippling gender dysphoria and decide to transition, what are you supposed to do? Sit in the corner and never socialise with another human again?’ No, you should seek psychiatric treatment to help you accept your sex. Transition should only ever be a last resort where treatment has failed and indeed this was the sensible approach taken until the trans lobby started their campaign to remove the need for psychiatric assessment. Of course this is wildly irresponsible because it’s a bad idea to self diagnose yourself with anything. ‘I’m trans’ could very easily not be the reason for someone to feel
uncomfortable with their body. Indeed many trans patients have other serious psychiatric issues which should be treated. The trans lobby wants to sacrifice confused and ill individuals to store up their ideology. How any one can think this is acceptable is beyond me.

@Eyerollcentral Yes agree that women have been discriminated against on the basis of sex and the associated social construct of femininity, but my point was...even if we defined women the way some people on this forum do, what next? Let's say it's purely about sex, so an adult human female. We'd be having the same conversations about awful men, but with trans people removed from the equation. The men actually causing harm would still be walking around, but years have passed where people have wasted their time talking about this. So I'm saying that I'd rather focus on just stopping awful men, without randomly putting the focus on the 0.1% of people who are trans. It would all come out at the same place so why not just get there faster.

OP

(one of) the problems here is you've walked into our board to tell us how you don't want us on your new inclusive board. Okay dokey then, but it does come across as

The 'critical' part of gender critical means critical in the same way as critical thinking not critical as is my father was very critical of his mother. You can have critical thinking and discussion OR you can have thought terminating cliches, no discussion and shunning of those who say the wrong things.

Here is what being GC means to me

Sex is real binary and immutable. I find comments or arguments that I am not a woman due to the fact my ovaries don't / haven't always worked right to be deeply offensive. There is no part of the process of building a human being from scratch that doesn't sometimes go wrong and no organ system that always functions perfectly. I have problems / have had problems with my ovaries working right, that does not make me a non-woman, unwomanly. I have seen people refer to me as intersex and use my condition to 'prove' that not only am I not a woman but that my existence proves there is no such thing as women. I assure you I find this extremely hurtful and offensive.

Sometimes it matters.

most of the 'bad' women here have discovered a red line or lines things that they cannot agree with without surrendering essential principles for me the first main one is / was

adult human females who are same sex attracted existed before stonewall changed the definitions of the word lesbian and continued to exist after stonewall changed the functional meaning of the word lesbian. I find the changes homophobic and sexist and will continue to believe that whilst a person can be heterosexual, bisexual or homosexual there is no moral superiority to women being heterosexual or bisexual and no moral imperative for homosexual woman to try sex with men transwomen or that they are allowed to opt out of certain sexual acts but they are being closed minded bigots if they just refuse to date transwomen en masse.

I do not hate heterosexual men that fancy lesbians, I do not believe that they should be stripped of (any) human rights. But no matter how much 'lesbian' porn they watch, how badly they want it or how entitled they feel I will never agree that a heterosexual man is entitled to decide that from now on he will be having sexual romantic relationships with homosexual women.

I do believe that all children deserve clear and accurate information about conception & contraception, I think losing that hurts boys and girls but puts the girls in much more danger as the consequences of conception are not equally distributed.

sex is real and sometimes it matters.

So when people who are normally not known for their support of feminism, yet somehow they now care more than the so called "women friendly left" i would say that is not really a sleight against the women who work with them but more a very large red flag as to how messed up and crazy everything has become.

It also says a lot about you that you see an issue with women getting insured and given a platform to speak without limitations.

@sweetcreams can you explain CPAC Australia's far right positions? What do they advocate or support that demonstrates a far right agenda?

She literally said they sponsored the events AND covered the insurance.

https://twitter.com/ICanSeeForever1/status/1632322400430768133?t=a1YB04ruAlocToVd7CIpTw&s=19

@myveryownelectrickitten I see your points. But if we can all agree women are socialised to be quieter and fit into these narrow moulds, surely we should give a chance for the women who have fallen victim to that to have their voice heard just as much as yours? Good for you that you are an outspoken, driven woman, but I don't see how me saying this forum should listen to those quieter voices would be a problem if this is about letting women be heard.

Also your argument presents a lose/lose situation for trans women. If they play into the behaviours women are often policed on (don't be too pushy etc.) you would argue that they'd be appropriating womanhood even more so than you think they are now, and adopting harmful stereotypes. If they are just themselves and probably less likely to fit into those moulds because they were socialised male, then you criticise them for not doing it. So if you have crippling gender dysphoria and decide to transition, what are you supposed to do? Sit in the corner and never socialise with another human again?

I feel like a lack of dysphoria also explains why even though you may have a masculine personality according to stereotypes, you're not trans.

So many feminists that love promoting these men on feminist boards! I think they have a crush!

The fems that push this bunch of losers must have the hots for them because they can't stop taking about them here. They are always in their thoughts and they must love to watch their videos because they have them available at their fingertips. They must think they are cute and really like to watch them over and over.

Which one do you fancy the most @sweetcreams.

Don't be shy, we know you have saved their videos so you can dream about your favourite one.

Dear lord. It's a public event and no one has the power to stop anyone filming it.

They were filming women talking about their personal experiences of suffering at the hands of men.

I can't imagine why people don't want that to reach as many ears and eyes as possible.

They livestreamed the event and promoted speakers through their social media.

”Her voice was ever soft, gentle and low / An excellent thing in women”

Isn’t your desire for those with the softer voices just another stereotype of what women should be like - part of that narrow view of what a woman is like that you say you grew up with?

Because one of the points of talking about “what is a woman” is precisely about those kinds of stereotypes. Why do transwomen adopt feminine clothing, and not the behavioural aspects of femininity that women are still routinely and normatively policed on? (Soft voice! Share! Don’t look too forward! Don’t be pushy! Don’t be bossy! Don’t take up too much space or dominate conversation!)

Why is it all appearance and superficial characteristics of traditional femininity that are part of the inner gender identity? And not all the messages that are sent to boys and girls from birth about what women’s personalities are like versus men’s?

For example, I have what might be thought of as quite a masculine personality according to many gender stereotypes - I’m quite driven, outspoken, hyper-rational, good at spatial analysis, no-nonsense, I like driving, take no prisoners intellectually etc., good with money, work in a male-dominated institution. I’m also sexually attracted to women. But I quite like skirts - find them comfortable - and have long hair. Why am I not trans? Should I doubt my inner gender identity because so many of my personality traits are socially coded as masculine? Why should clothing and hairstyle be the determinant, when clothing and hairstyles change regularly over time with fashion?

These are part of the problems with gender ideology that GC feminists are identifying. Why is the evidence of “gender identity” so superficial, leaving many other “gendered” norms intact? Why should women speak in low quiet voices for fear of being thought not quite the thing? Do men with “loud voices” ever get tone policed by other men and told to shut up in favour of the more softly spoken men?

(I note that Robin Moira White, who often appears on these boards, did not want to alter her vocal tone on the grounds that her original masculine voice was a big advantage as an advocate in the law. Why should that be the case? Why would adopting a female-sounding voice be a detriment in a male-dominated career, I wonder? Could it be those social stereotypes again?)

It's always odd to me when posters declare that they are not "GC" and never could be.

Yes. They don't understand the concept. No feminist can be uncritical of gender.

Women are oppressed on the basis of their biology, and gender is the means by which it's done.

People appear to think 'gender critical', as a concept, has only arrived in conjunction with transgenderism.

Instead of transgenderism forcing detrimental stereotypes on women, and feminists naturally opposing it because they have always been critical of gender.

Waay before transgenderism entered the arena.

@wontbesilencedbyyou ’Always with the same responses- like 'define a woman!' (Side note: I find that pointless. Women have been discriminated against for years before anyone thought women could be anything but XX. Even if we do settle that debate- what next? Are men going to magically stop discriminating against us? Will we stop getting mansplained to, raped and trafficked disproportionately? I think women have bigger issues than excluding a tiny minority’ Ummmmm you do realise women were discriminated against before any one knew what xx was because it’s immediately apparent who is male and who is female. Particularly in the past when the make up, wigs and facial feminisation surgery that many men choose to indulge their fantasy was not available. Women were discriminated against on the basis of sex. They continue to be discriminated against on the basis of sex. Not because they say they are a woman. Your point is incredibly foolish. Woman is not an expansive term. It applies to one of two types of humans. And yes there are much more important things in the world to be discussed than this nonsense, however it is men centring their desires that has meant this topic has consumed all in its sights because now women are not even allowed to have ownership of their own sex. Speak to the men deluding themselves that they are women, not the women pointing out they aren’t.

It's always odd to me when posters declare that they are not "GC" and never could be. To me, "gender critical" means simply being critical of gender as a concept. Critical of its use to impose a hierarchy that subordinates women, critical of imposing gender roles and stereotypes on people, critical of those who would denigrate or punish those who step outside those gender roles and stereotypes. And so on. I'd have thought that every poster who self describes as a feminist would agree with being critical of those things.

This!

There is no such thing as "non-GC feminism". If you are an actual feminist you have no choice but to be critical of one of the most misogynistic ideologies of the last 50 years.

It's like asking for an environmental forum without people who are critical of coal mines, big oil companies and pesticides. It makes no sense what so ever.

And if the issue is more that as you see trans women as women and you don't accept that a crime by a minority of trans women should invalidate that (rather than there actually empirically being no threat whatsoever, which is not an unreasonable POV even if I don't agree), another interesting thought experiment is whether there are any circumstances that might change your view? What if they offended at twice the rate of males against women? Ten times? A hundred times?

In other words, is there a point at which the theory must bend to fact? I am really interested in your answer on this.

The equivalent evidence challenge for GC women might be to ask if their views might change if there is no offending, or only offending at a female rate

Good for you, wontbesilencedbyyou. I disagree with several of your points, but it's always good to get good faith discussions from people with different angles.

@wontbesilencedbyyou are you seriously tone policing women on a feminism board? Why? why exactly should we listen to you? Have you told the gender ideologists to #bekind? Or are you ok with the rape threats, the death threats, the doxing, the assaults? Go and tell the TRA to let the quieter , reasoned voices speak and do come back and let us know how that went won’t you?

Hey OP- sorry in advance for the long post, I have a lot to say on this.

Just wanted to say that I really agree with your sentiment that this forum can be unpleasant. I came to this site about a year ago because I was told it's transphobic and I wanted to check it out.

I'm not and will never be GC, and I disagree with the vast majority which is said here... but I stayed, because there were a few things things I actually agreed with, from a group I never thought I'd find any common ground with. I also find some of the quick quips amusing, and as a woman who was brought up to fit into a quiet, narrow mould of what it means to be a woman, I've grown to really admire so many women who post on here (even if we disagree). There are many people on here who outspoken and take no prisoners, without being condescending or cruel. I realise saying that will make me hated by both sides, but whatever. I think both sides need to listen to the other side in a way which is genuine and objective.

I think there are loads of women on here who see nuance and want to have that discussion. For example, people who want to support trans women but have a problem with someone who came out as a trans woman yesterday or trans feminine individuals who are 6ft 5 with beards walking into their bathrooms. I'm not saying I agree with those people, or that that happens as often as reading this thread would make you think, but it's the nuance on this forum which the majority of people are here for and I think there's space for that.

Unfortunately, what you also see here is a small minority of people with much louder voices always piling onto someone who shares a hint of not being GC, pulling them to shreds. Always with the same responses- like 'define a woman!' (Side note: I find that pointless. Women have been discriminated against for years before anyone thought women could be anything but XX. Even if we do settle that debate- what next? Are men going to magically stop discriminating against us? Will we stop getting mansplained to, raped and trafficked disproportionately? I think women have bigger issues than excluding a tiny minority).
An example of this- I read a thread here yesterday by a man who called all trans women autogynophiles. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of women on this thread wouldn't agree with that, but he wasn't called out for that particular comment from what I remember. I found this interesting, when you compare it to every word being torn to shreds on here by someone who isn't GC sharing a view.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but I don't think it's separating out the forums will help. I just think the quieter, reasoned voices (some GC, some not GC) need to push forwards more. As I'm writing this I'm pledging to do that.

That is quite shocking seeing them listed. How anyone can think that transwomen pose no threat is beyond me. I’ve asked @PlanetLuna twice now but they don’t seem to be answering any questions

I thought that when the figures from the MoJ and the census were inspected, it turned out that trans-identified males had higher rates of sexual offending than the average man. Did I miss a revision?