Starmer rowing back on self ID - what do we think?

Just the Labour Party???? I see more examples of that with the conservatives but someway everyone keeps giving them a second chance.

Remind me again which party has has had three female prime ministers and which has never even elected a female leader?

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · Today

^11:59Jezzz · Today 11:24
I've scrolled through all 10 pages. Must have missed it. Could you repost it?^

Here
https://twitter.com/Wommando/status/1639200507171426307?s=20

The trouble is that Wes has not kept abreast about discussions in law. Why not? Stop being lazy. Wes and Kier are clever enough to understand if they bothered, why haven’t they bothered?

Too smug and lazy not to think they know it all already? And that is true of a lot of the Conservatives too.

The Equality Act and Gender Recognition Act are legally rather a mess especially on how they interact.

The exceptions for single sex spaces set out in the Equality Act are no longer recognised as clearly meaning sex by biology. The word ‘biology’ was not mentioned in the original Equality Act because ‘male and female’, which are mentioned are biological states, but people do not necessarily accept that now so there needs to be more clarity.

Lady Haldane in Scotland ruled that someone with a GRC is the sex the certificate says they are and if the Equality Act had meant sex was biological sex it would have said so.

Kier himself said it is the law [that TWAW ] when he was saying you can’t say only women have a cervix.

That is why it needs updating to make clear that sex in the EA is biological.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mps-to-debate-gender-petition-backed-by-jk-rowling-qh0h0bctk
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4534821c-bf89-11ed-b52d-512231a0c9aa?shareToken=a2be6368ec3ec1a7a1e413545f54b9d9

As it is, these sex based spaces Wes mentioned, contrary to his understanding, could be interpreted to mean they have to be inclusive of those with fictional (non-biological) ‘sex’ by GRC.

Someone with a GRC could sue if they were discriminated against. (Someone without one even successfully sued the NHS in Sheffield last summer because the judge was institutionally captured perhaps.)

If Labour brings in self-ID GRCs, the number of people obtaining one will expand dramatically and all natal men holding one will be potentially able to lay claim to women’s spaces.

Did Wes say they would not bring in self-ID?

That thread is a really good example of where a lot of pro Labour heads are at.

Dismiss women's concerns because it's a culture war, because she wouldn't have voted Labour anyway, because she's a bad person as there are far more important policies to vote on.

If Labour want to win they need to stop preaching to the converted and broaden their appeal by listening to people who currently won't vote for them instead of dismissing them.

I genuinely think they are in denial about just how angry many women are about this issue and the nearer we get to an election of course the Tories are going to weaponise this and still Labour are giving them all the ammunition they need to do so.

Just the Labour Party???? I see more examples of that with the conservatives but someway everyone keeps giving them a second chance.

Yep. The problem is the Labour Party have fully shown their misogyny too many times - and it is on record - for random articles about the menopause or listening to the electorate to make any difference.

They have shown they think they know better than women, and that they don't care about normal women's lived experiences. They think the electorate is stupid and not worth listening to. They've lied again and again. They have strongly totalitarian tendancies. Why would I vote for that?

How Rosie Duffield copes with it all day in day out I don't know. She's a real shero.

Similar to Labour accusing the Tories and SNP of using trans people as a “political football”.

According to men, it's just "culture war crap":

twitter.com/edcmpbl/status/1638967017607688207?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

They'd never say this about any other group being abused like we are.

Here

Re https://twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1582797649446850560
Posted by ResisterRex

I feel viscerally furious and almost sick to see him standing with that ‘holy’ green field backdrop, orating with that air of concentration and sincerity how much the qualities of justice and fairness matter to him - taken what he is willing to see happen to women in the way of ripping away justice and fairness.

I've scrolled through all 10 pages. Must have missed it. Could you repost it?

Be careful what you wish for.

The full expression is "more light, less heat".

And the more light that gets shed on this nonsense, the better.

Nah, it means, "We're are going to pretend there is an equivalency between violent threats, actual violence & doxing from TRAs on the one hand, and GC women asking to have a stand at a Labour conference on the other. We will use that false equivalency to pretend that we are taking the moral high ground and finding a fair compromise when, in fact, we are simply taking rights off women and giving them to men."

Streeting 'We need to learn from what happened in Scotland'.

FFS, what happened in Scotland should not have come as a surprise if 1. Your party was capable of critical thinking 2. Your party did not ignore women who tried over and over again to raise this with you.

It's linked in my post.

Does anyone have a link to what he actually said?

Yep
Less heat
🙄
Means I can’t answer

Look at those clips below they can’t answer a simple and fundamental question

Less heat, is the new no debate. Its a silencing technique.

This sounds a lot better - until you remember that Wes Streeting was in a secret What's App group set up to drive GC women out of Labour.

If I recall that group was set up by lily madigan. Streeting really needs to explain the extent of his involvement

Should we start a drinking game?

Every time a Labour MP gives us the old “we need less heat” in the women’s rights debate we can have a little 🍷or 😬

How quickly would we all end up plastered?! 😂

Precisely - but it would be fascinating to watch them trying to get organised enough to co-ordinate a political movement on their own and gather enough support to attract more than a handful of votes. The in-fighting world be a sight to behold.

I know there are people on this forum who would strongly disagree with my view, and I expect their right to do so, but I also believe they are wrong.

I wouldn't be so sure @user1471453601, there are plenty here who likewise wonder why there was such indecent haste to push through the Scottish legislation when as you say there are far more important issues at stake (Scottish public services are in a terrible state). So perhaps he needs to quash any talk of self-ID at all until the country is back on its feet.

For that matter, given the public sector is very overstretched at the moment, perhaps he should instruct schools and other public bodies to stop paying for external training and memberships which clearly provide poor value for money (quite apart from the dubious stuff they teach). Then to avoid the NHS being sued into oblivion as the long term effects of hormones and surgery become apparent, he should discontinue the provision of this and redirect the funding towards adolescent mental health services - in many cases this just seems to be the latest iteration of self-harming/anorexia, only this time it's encouraged.

Because there aren't very many of them and the loudest of them are angry incels who are unemployed or unemployable.

This sounds a lot better - until you remember that Wes Streeting was in a secret What's App group set up to drive GC women out of Labour.

And that - only last autumn - gender critical women were banned from the Labour conference.

How can we trust any of them?

I think this really, but I think we need to use this little chink in the armour to push them further. I don’t really see that there is any alternative to doing this.

Agreed!

Whatever has happened it's led Labour into a hideously muddled position where no-one understands them (trans twitter are accusing starmer of being transphobic, aligning the Labour Party with Nazis and that a vote for Labour is a vote for actual trans genocide)

They just need to ride the wave of hyperbole for a while if they want to get out of the pickle they are in. They’ve been pandering to trans ideologues for years now so I imagine there will be a fair amount of flouncing and tantruming before normality can resume. But if they go through with it they will find themselves with so much more room to manoeuvre. It will be liberating.