Labour ‘must fix its trans stance to win the next election’ - party needs to clarify its policies to be closer to the public’s views on the debate

It's already amply clear to me that I'm not going to get what I "want" from any political party.

I'd settle for not being scolded like a stupid dog for not then dutifully wagging my tail at the Right People or growling at the Wrong People or for licking my own butt in the Acceptable manner.

But clearly I'm not going to get that either.

What are you doing with what you say that is better?

I can’t see anyone else failing here tbh. Everyone is clear and direct. If Labour have cloth ears it’s entirely their failing. Not women.

You can ask for anything you want, in whatever tone you want. It depends if what matters to you is having an actual impact, or just self-expression.

If you actually want people to listen to what you say, and change their views, particularly if they are coming from a very different starting point to you, then yes, the tough reality is you do need to take care to frame it in a way that will be clear - and palatable - to your audience.

Given Labour are going to be in power soon and we need their support to change things (and at the very least, stop them making things any worse), we DO need to consider how we present our message so they can absorb it, yes.

It might not be 'fair', but life's not fair. You can either be proudly ignorant of political realities or you can consider them.

Personally, I'm inherently suspicious of anyone advising other women to do something which will harm our cause.

We're not children - we're adults, and quite capable of thinking and acting strategically, in our longer-term interests. If you don't want to make that sacrifice, why not?? Why are you advising women to act against our best interests? Cui bono?

Seconded.

I live on Merseyside and every word rings true

No-one is suggesting that women with 'right-leaning' politics shouldn't speak up. Not sure how on earth you got that from what I posted.

There is a huge and cavernous divide between women who are right of centre expressing their views and a bunch of literal (and male) Nazis trying to forced-team with women fighting for our rights.

I am somewhat baffled how anyone could confuse the two. Unless they were deliberately trying to muddy the waters??

And whose interest would that be in??

Not women’s, that's for sure.

Great post, NotHavingIt.

What is clear is that your commitment and attachment to voting Labour outweighs your concerns around Genderism. That's your call!

I live in Liverpool where hatred of the Tories is everyday bread and butter; almost a badge of citizenship; yet at the same time I know how many are deeply mistrustful of Starmer. They see him as a Blairite sell-out, and expect little from him. Liverpool has been as side-lined and ignored by successive Labour governments as much as it has by the Tory administrations.

In the recent years I have been led to question all of my former certainties and allegiances ( politically) and have to say it has been something of a liberation. i have let go of the interminable tribalism that is associated with Left/Right - and now tend to take a far more over-arching, systemic view of things.

Politics and history tends to repeat itself in broadly similar ways and patterns; nothing is really that new. I no longer see the traditional Left/right divide as being the main vector of differentiation anymore. People are now aligning in differnt ways and across differnt issues that no longer fit that typical pattern.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't under-estimate the difficulties we face as a country in economic terms; though i seriously doubt the Labour party is going to make that much difference to the situation - certainly not if you listen to what they have already said about how they would handle the economy.

I'll be spoiling my ballot - again - because i simply cannot vote for my constituency Labour MP. I cannot abide her - and she has told me in plain and simple language that she has no intention of meeting withg those of us with concerns over genderism in all its forms and has "no intention of changing her mind". Would you really expect me to vote for such a representative?

Talk about the awful Tories all you like, but personally my bond, and trust, in the Labour party is broken. In future I will judge my MP on their personal integrity and on whether they align with my main values - regardless of political party. I want my MP to speak out on matters that concern me.

Ah I see we’re doing the old feminism wrong again

Labour couldn’t stomach life long members like Joan smith or Karen ingla smith having TW are not women views. They need literally no reason or excuse to brand women who don’t agree with them that TW are women as right wing

We have zero hope of bringing Labour along with us, before or after they gain power, if we are not absolutely rigorous about how we present our message and who we allow to speak for us.

Many left leaning women, including those in the Labour Party have tried to bring Labour along with them, by being kind, measured in tone etc.

You know what Labour did? Ignored them, and in some cases banned them from being members.

Re 'who we allow to speak for us', what gives anyone the right to decide who gets to speak? Women with right leaning politics are every bit as impacted by this as women on the left, and they also deserve to have their voices heard. (P S we can't actually prevent anyone from speaking up)

Yep. It doesn’t wash though. Too many make good points on here clearly.

The polls can shift and already are in some. We’ll see.

Anyway I’m clear what I have issue with as are other women on here. If you feel your message isn’t right adapt.

Pesky women. Always asking for thing in the wrong way, or the wrong tone, or at inconvenient times.

That's fantasy politics.

The polls now are showing quite clearly that Labour do NOT need to move on self-ID before gaining power. Whether you or I like it, they will almost certainly form our next government, whatever their views on self-ID.

So, to be perfectly realistic, women who care about women’s rights need to be absolutely rigorous about making sure that our message is a) clear b) widely spread and c) politically acceptable to the left by which I mean absolutely no potential links to the far right which will make it impossible for Starmer to turn the reluctant ship of the left round on this issue.

So yes, that means running a mile from anything that could possibly be painted as association with the far right (which you would hope we would be doing anyway), and shouting from the bloody rooftops our strong aversion to the far right at all times.

The more the far right try to forced-team with us for their own nefarious purposes, the more loudly and clearly we need to push back.

We have zero hope of bringing Labour along with us, before or after they gain power, if we are not absolutely rigorous about how we present our message and who we allow to speak for us.

Im not sure the proves what you think it does. The GRA act which allows people to obtain a GRC was passed in 2004, by a Labour Government. The process hasn't changed since then.

The % of those granted has always been high, ever since 2005 when there was a 95.7% approval rate.

However it is only small numbers of people who apply for and are granted a GRC. There are failings in the current GRC process, but there has to be a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and applications are considered by a panel. Self ID is exactly what it's says it is.

I know exactly how it works but i can't help it that you do not know the difference between a Clinic and a Helpdesk.

The point here is the man can easily convince the clinic that he should be a she and he will get the cert & the Tories have set up many more of these.

Here is the actually data:

Data on Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) applications from the Tribunals Statistics Quarterly shows that, in the financial year 2020 to 2021

95.6% of all decisions made on Gender Recognition Certificate applications led to a full or interim certificate being awarded
1.8% of all decisions led to an application being refused

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/gender-recognition-certificate-applications-and-outcomes/gender-recognition-certificate-applications-and-outcomes

I don't know about you but that looks like Self ID to me.

Its a shame you and others use this very serious issue to bash Labour (without even being able to wait to see what their actually policy is) whilst totally ignoring the mess we see now is under a Tory administration.

The left need to be dislodged from this stuff before gaining power

Unfortunately, I suspect that is correct. I don't think identity politics are inherently left-wing. They are so dependent on rigid sex stereotypes, that you can easily imagine them taking hold under an authoritarian right-wing government. But, as the cards have fallen, they are now firmly associated with the Left.

Labour has shown no real concern or alarm at what has happened in Scotland, or its part in passing the GRR Bill. When they talk about gender politics, they simply do not acknowledge women's rights or concerns. Why would anyone expect this to change, if they gain power? They are very clear about their intentions.

There’s a few threads today that reinforce the nightmare-ish outcomes of left gender ideology

The one where a politician calls women actual shit and the Barbie thread.

It’s very troubling where men are happy to go when allowed

The left need to be dislodged from this stuff before gaining power.

Self ID comes in under Starmer, no way is it reversed if Tories win in 2028. This is purely down to the man himself.

There will be a huge difference if self-id is legislated in. Once you start to legislate in this stuff, it becomes so fraught to try and get rid of it.

And that might not be all the LP do. I can only imagine that they will want to go forward with outlawing what they call trans-conversion therapy, and what could happen with hate crime legislation and such? There are all kinds of regulatory and legal things that have gone farther under leftist governments in other countries.

NotHavingIt, I feel very much the same way. As a diehard Tory since 1983 (excl 1997), for the first time ready to embrace voting Left since my Tony Benn-adoring teen period, what am I presented with?
99 reasons to vote against the Tories, but 1 critical reason to refuse to put my X in the Labour (or LD, Green) box...and my local MP is Liz Truss!
I look at Starmer...and listen...one day at the Pink News awards saying Self ID is his heartfelt aim...the next day at Mumsnet Towers saying he's perturbed by teens wishing to transition...one day saying it's cruel and hurtful for Rosie Duffield and others to say only women (biological, observed on the ultrasound and at birth) can have a cervix...the next day saying that gender legislation is not "his priority"...the next day for consecutive years signing off on disallowing gender critical Labour Womens Declaration at Labour conference.
And if what I'm hearing is right, in that Y. Cooper and S. Kinnock have trans identified children, no way is Starmer declaring to them, and thus the party, anything less than devotion to the cause, the trans child must be fully accepted, and on the Labour front bench at very least A. Rayner, E. Thornberry, T. Debonnaire, D. Lammy, L. Nandy are all died in the wool trans activist minded...just how am I meant to have the merest confidence that Starmer isn't himself TRA, or even if he's skeptical, the party from activist base to policy making at the top, isn't institutionally captured? All the while looking both ways at once to Joe and Josy Public, saying whatevers needed to placate both viewpoints out in the country.
Well, it's not possible. And thus when this government deserves putting out of its misery, I cannot vote for the party that would enable this.
The cognitive dissonance is at Eleven.

if a man can get a certificate inc a passport, now, to say he is a woman, via an NHS clinic, then i think any sensible person would say that is legal self ID.

No it is not. You clearly have no idea how any of this works. You don't just walk into a clinic and pick up a certificate.

Under the current system (introduced by Labour), to get a GRC (I assume this is what you mean by 'a certificate'; passports are separate) a person needs a diagnosis (or surgery plus more stringent conditions if they do not have a diagnosis). They also need to submit a dossier of evidence to a panel for approval. The panel can and does reject some application. That is not self ID - it is a multi-stage process, involving multiple other people, requiring evidence, that can be turned down.

Self ID - as in the Scottish GRR bill and as promised to Pink News by Starmer - does away with NHS involvement, does away with the panel, does away with evidence requirements, does away with the possibility of the application being rejected. It is based only on a simple declaration by the person. Self ID.

I'm going to judge the Labour party on what they say when it comes to Gender Ideology, and I'll believe them too. It would be foolish to think that all of those who have stood by as Rosie Duffield has been barracked and abused ( from within her own party) will soon change their modus operandi.

They believe in Self Id without the need for a medical diagnosis; they believe that transwomen should be placed in the prison of their choosing; they believe that Trans Women are Women; a good proportion of them have said they don't believe in "sex segregated spaces"; and as far as I'm aware they are still signed up to Stonewall's diversity champion scheme; some of them have signed petitions calling women's groups 'hate groups'; the Labour women's declaration were not permitted a stall at least year's conference; my local MP has point blank refused to meet with her constitunets on this matter and we've been told that she is " not going to change her mind". David Lammy has referred to women as 'dinosaurs'; others have referred to JK Rowling as a 'transphobic' bully and to other women as bigots.

I'd have to be delusional to vote for them; and I won't be; and I won't vote for them again until they regain common sense.

I'm sorry but if a man can get a certificate inc a passport, now, to say he is a woman, via an NHS clinic, then i think any sensible person would say that is legal self ID. the law has doesn't stop anyone calling themselves whatever they like, trans people didn't just appear in the last 15 or so years but now a man can become a woman in law.. under the the "Protector of Womens rights" the Tories but its Labour who we should be afraid off

You mean a GRC? That Labour brought in 2004?

I'm sorry but if a man can get a certificate inc a passport, now, to say he is a woman, via an NHS clinic, then i think any sensible person would say that is legal self ID.
the law has doesn't stop anyone calling themselves whatever they like, trans people didn't just appear in the last 15 or so years but now a man can become a woman in law.. under the the "Protector of Womens rights" the Tories but its Labour who we should be afraid off.

The threat is now, loss of rights is happening now! not in October 2024.

Yes i care very much both for me and my dd and i agree with @TheABC and another poster that Labour should not be an automatic shoe in, which is why i will wait for official confirmation either way, Tory and Labour, as i ve repeatedly said before.

I can't change what the present Govt will or wont do, they are a law unto themselves but i can badger my local prospective Lab candidate on her views and challenge them.

ATM there are gapping holes in Labours commitments so far, they, as far as i can tell are still formulating specific policy, as they bloody well should, they have that luxury, use it!