Labour ‘must fix its trans stance to win the next election’ - party needs to clarify its policies to be closer to the public’s views on the debate

Welsh Labour refer to women as cis women in their publications so expect doubling down and erosion of women’s rights.

I predict that Labour will continue to fudge, avoid and prevaricate and it will become one of the big, ongoing thorns in the side for them...the one that simply will not go away. And as more and more evidence piles up of the harms being done both to children and to women, the pressure and the discomfort will only increase further. People will have to be made accountable for their evasions and others for their continuing positive endorsements of a damaging and radical ideology.

Labour is going to have a lot on their plate when/if elected. It is easy to hide when on the shadow benches, and easy to point fingers - not so easy when you are the party in charge.

The Gender recognition act should never have been brought in. It has fuelled a movement which has resulted in girls being given mastectomies and toilets becoming a no go area for girls.

I hate the Tories but Labour brought in the Gender Recognition Act in the first place, don’t forget that.

@TorqueWrench you've resurrected this thread just to tell women that we're wrong and nobody cares about us or our rights, really
Are the labour party that scared of all the recent polls that prove the exact opposite (ie everyone cares about men in women's anything and everything).
You do realise that everyone knows that the emperor is naked and that Starmer can't be trusted with anything

I dunno. Given the hate for the Tories I think Labour have a pretty good shot regardless of all the trans nonsense. Most people don't really give much thought to all the gender stuff.

Maybe he couldn't take the risk of being seen with a GC woman?

I mean, c'mon now! All he hears on the doorstep etc is everything except women's concerns re gender.

Why hang out with the most GC member of his party, if not the whole UK (certainly on a par with Kemi Badenoch)?

@Blort - "her turf" - very witty!

Keir Starmer has been to Kent today and didnt let Rosie Duffield know he was going to her patch (her turf?! Ha..)

Not a great sign.

https://twitter.com/RosieDuffield1/status/1642170493494079488?t=ofOQpYuK6vlF7BAZ0JNqgQ&s=19

Good points.

As with the conversion therapy campaign, it borrows heavily from LGB history to achieve a TQ+ political wanted ground.

And as the schools report discusses in detail, and as you say: the safeguarding aspects are not fully linked and investigated, and those needs properly met. Everything disappears under the useful label of 'gender' which is then used to politically leverage inconvenient adults out of the way of being allowed to say 'no'.

Yes, and the accusation using the woolly umbrella term ‘LGBT’ to describe the children who have these abusive parents, also means, if there is any truth in it, that some parents are homophobic - so a further example that these children may be potentially gay and vulnerable to thinking themselves ‘trans’ as a way out.

And the numbers of ‘LGBT’ homeless children given as an example may, when they say they are trans, may not be homeless because they are trans, but trans in the first place because of former abuse and homeless because of running away.

If a child has suffered abuse at home, it still would not be up to the school to affirm them as trans. The school ought to get them help from SS and psychological help.

Indeed. And there are plenty of examples of offspring who have later been profoundly grateful that their parents stuck with reality and didn't cave in.

There is an awful lot of projection going on I suspect.

Separating kids from parental relationships and getting them to detach from anyone who does not unconditionally enable them in whatever they currently wish and put their trust instead in glittery adults on the internet is another major safeguarding issue that is connected. There is the paranoia that even an adult potentially saying no is an abusive adult who is a danger. As you can see through a quick surf on FWR and the other boards on MN parents would do anything for their children, are desperate to help and keep them safe - they just may not see the best interests and safety for their child in unconditional obedience to the political lobby.

I don't doubt some are thrown out of their homes.

A) some are abuse victims.

B) adult children making narcissistic pronoun demands and gaslighting parents may become too much, if they are 25 and the parents had them at 35 the parents will be 60, they may have heart issues and to save their health they may have to send the narc adult children out of the house to fend for themselves.

Under 18s are subject to court orders if required.

I got on to this Twitter thread about Kier Starmer and schools.

Trans activists here are angry with Kier for saying parents want to be informed and they are claiming this betrays the child into an abusers’ hands.

Some comments mention that a large number of homeless are LGBT who were thrown out of home when their parents found out.

And there are claims that many children will be abused at home.

Does anyone have any hard statistics relating to these claims?

Dominic Penna on Twitter: "Keir Starmer says schools "need and want guidance" on trans issues: "I think it's very concerning to see that different schools are doing different things. "And I think parents would want to know what's going on. I think that's understandable. And I say that as a parent myself."

twitter.com/DominicPenna/status/1641405403559870464

Reading the comments: they are getting it in the neck from activists shouting about their transphobia as much as from women refusing to embrace misogyny and inequality for happier penises in our time.

No way to win.

I have really enjoyed reading this thread, and was sad to get to the end! Thought I would share this tweet from the Labour Party Twitter account today twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1641689281617088512?s=20

They basically say:

Labour will:
Introduce tougher sentences for LGBT+ hate crime
Ban conversion therapy in all forms
Modernise the outdated Gender Recognition Act

Not sounding promising is it? Don't know how Keir Starmer could have anything dramatically different to say than this. No special announcement or policy change soon it seems...

Authoritarian societies encourage belief and emotion over evidence as a means of control to prevent the revealing of truth.

And those with personality disorders and dysfunctional relationship skills are often noted by therapists to believe that reality is created by how they feel instead of objective facts.

And that this is often demonstrated in the apparent absolute incoherence of what they say - a person may deny knowing something or ever having been told it, although others have informed them in very small words in writing trying to get it over to them, because they did not agree with it .

An argument with someone not doing as they want, is not over until the other person is compliant with no regard whatsoever for the other person's needs, feelings, situation, that what they are asking is impossible and harmful for the other.

And the fact that yesterday they said this, and today they said that, and to a rational, objective listener they obviously cannot both be true which invalidates what they say? To the speaker, the objective content is irrelevant, both statements served their genuine feelings at the time so both are 'true'. The listener needs to serve their feelings, not expect to respond to facts.

The relationships board constantly supports people to navigate interaction with this kind of warped thinking on an individual basis. It may need to support society to navigate on an entire political lobby basis.

I wonder why more centrist and right-leaning people are never so patronising as to hector people about their voting choices and insisting they know better what’s best for us. 🤔

Exactly. But the scolders either refuse to see this (a sort of "you're either with us or against us" mentality?) or simply expand the scolding to insist that one must cast a vote (with the addition of "and it must be for Labour, otherwise see above").

... just because someone states they can’t/can no longer vote Labour because of their wilful obtuse ignorance over the definition of a woman (and all the impacts on women’s rights that flow from that), it doesn’t automatically follow they’re going to vote Tory.

Absolutely. I'm in Scotland (Glasgow), and my constituency and many of the others around are SNP/Labour "swing seats". Almost every one was also a safe seat for Labour for about a century, ending in the SNP winning the seat in 2015 (AFTER Scotland voted against independence) and holding it ever since.

Every GE, the seat where I live and vote could've easily swung back - but it didn't in 2017 or 2019 because Labour did not stand a serious/competent candidate. (And, I think it's important to note, these people who no one cared to vote for as an MP were recycled and no one cared to vote for them as a constituency MSP, but they got in on the list vote because Labour did so badly overall in Glasgow, which was once its natural support core).

So, what will change so that Glaswegians/Scots will vote Labour in the next UK election? I'm of course not going to vote Con; I'm still devestated about Brexit. But the idea that Labour deserves my vote is absolutely laughable.

I’ve skipped from the first hundred posts to the end of the thread so sorry if anyone more articulate has already pointed this out, but just because someone states they can’t/can no longer vote Labour because of their wilful obtuse ignorance over the definition of a woman (and all the impacts on women’s rights that flow from that), it doesn’t automatically follow they’re going to vote Tory. I could never vote for the latter because of their ideology that to be poor or disabled is a moral failing, along with many other reasons. But neither can I vote for any of the left-leaning parties who won’t even acknowledge that I, as a woman, am more than simply a dickless man, a support human not worthy of full rights distinct from men in today’s society. I am politically homeless and left with no alternative but to spoil my ballot paper. And that’s no failing on my part; it’s the fault of the mainstream parties who have turned away from material reality to indulge the magical thinking of a tiny minority.

DemiColon · Today 00:57
I think this is also why we've seen the whole, weird, anti-statue type movement. Which includes other things like changing street names and so on.

It's not really because it is "honouring bad people." It's because it risks making people realize that our current heroes and gods and principles may also be misguided or wrong. After all, if people in the past were wrongheaded, maybe we should also question our own ideas? It's all about mental pacification.

I think the very last thing on people’s minds is that they themselves may be misguided and wrong about something. They are certain they are different and good.

They do not entertain the idea that one day people of the future may well look back on some aspect of their present actions with shock and abhorrence.

Someone here once told me the name for this phenomenon which their history lecturer had told them, but unfortunately I don’t remember it.

Re: Labour
See the ridiculous, ill-informed, and fudging non-answer from Ellie Reeves to a poster who wrote to her, as their MP, about the Equality Act petition and proposed debate.
It is a more recent one on this thread,
100,000 signatures on the Equality Act - What next

I think this is also why we've seen the whole, weird, anti-statue type movement. Which includes other things like changing street names and so on.

It's not really because it is "honouring bad people." It's because it risks making people realize that our current heroes and gods and principles may also be misguided or wrong. After all, if people in the past were wrongheaded, maybe we should also question our own ideas? It's all about mental pacification.

BorisisaLune · Yesterday 14:59
I'm sorry but if a man can get a certificate inc a passport, now, to say he is a woman, via an NHS clinic, then i think any sensible person would say that is legal self ID.
the law has doesn't stop anyone calling themselves whatever they like, trans people didn't just appear in the last 15 or so years but now a man can become a woman in law.. under the the "Protector of Womens rights" the Tories but its Labour who we should be afraid off.

In spite of what you say seeming true in some ways , and Stonewall et Al pushing that line, getting a GRC definitely makes a difference. It makes the difficulties even worse.

You cannot just get a certificate at the moment without a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, two years living in your new gender, an intention that this is intended for life, and some sort of protection for a spouse I think and there may be more conditions.

Why does a GRC make it worse?
Lady Haldane’s recent judgement in Scotland says a person actually is in law the sex the Gender Recognition
Certificate says they are.

Therefore the ‘sex’ based exceptions in the Equality Act, which allow for discrimination against the opposite sex in certain circumstances, would not be allowed to discriminate against a person (who in reality is the opposite sex) so long as they have a GRC contradicting their biological sex.

Lady Haldane said the Equality Act would have mentioned that sex was biological if it had meant that. ( This could be challenged but someone needs to bring an appeal and that needs another £150,000, more? And months of someone’s life. )

The reason this Government has blocked Scotland’s GRR is that it would make chaos. For example girls schools would have to take self-ID transgirls/biological boys over 16. JK Rowling’s Breira’s Place would be illegal. No women’s sex based spaces would be allowed because a transwoman with a GRC could bring a discrimination lawsuit.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mps-to-debate-gender-petition-backed-by-jk-rowling-qh0h0bctk
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4534821c-bf89-11ed-b52d-512231a0c9aa?shareToken=a2be6368ec3ec1a7a1e413545f54b9d9

NB Hence the petition to make clear that sex in the Equality Act is biological sex, not sex as modified by a GRC.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4758082-petition-to-update-the-equality-act-thread-3

To write to your MP
https://sex-matters.org/take-action/write-to-your-mp-about-the-petition/