Labour ‘must fix its trans stance to win the next election’ - party needs to clarify its policies to be closer to the public’s views on the debate

Absolutely!

Many women are being very direct on why they won’t vote for Labour over this. No twisting needed.

@MarshaBradyo This is true and while I might personally find it a difficult circle to square I can see why many women's vote hinges on this. I've never been under the illusion that women can act as a collective for their best interests owing to the fact we all have differing circumstances which shape us for better or worse.

Tories are most definitely the best of a bad bunch

Indeed. Like most ex-Labour supporters, I am under no illusions about the Tories. They oppose self-ID at the moment for expediency, but, under Maria Miller, they very nearly succeeded in introducing it. I don't trust them, but my choices at the moment are:

1. Three mainstream parties who say that TWAW and that they will introduce self-ID
2. One party that says it won't.

Answering a simple and fundamental question honestly is a basic requirement I agree

But I don’t agree on the mental gymnastics part. Many women are being very direct on why they won’t vote for Labour over this. No twisting needed.

@MarshaBradyo I don't advise women to vote any particular way per se, I think every woman has to look rather holistically at which party represents her best interests depending on all manner of things. I do think we're through the looking glass when a politician seemingly can't answer the simple question of 'what is a woman?' similarly to when asked to define woke should they claim society has become too woke.

Well isn’t that the point?

If you can agree there has been a destruction of women’s rights under the conservatives, who at not fully paid up members of this ideology, how bad would it have been under labour? Do you think the labour policies would have had more or less of a destructive effect? Why?

On this issue, Tories are most definitely the best of a bad bunch.

It's not really "mental gymnastics" to have a stated reason for your choice of MP, is it?

Labour have noisily advocated for self-ID and that TWAW, and now their supporters seem upset that voters are taking these policies into account, when deciding how to vote.

Underpinning this attitude is a strong foundation of "Women should just do as they are told". #NoThankYou

This issue has already felled Nicola Sturgeon, who had led the SNP through electoral success after success for nearly nine years and seemed invincible. So I wouldn't be too sure that it won't do the same for Starmer.

We are all getting very very stupid when political leaders cannot make up their minds what a woman is. I could not vote for any political party whose leader could not tell me what a woman is. I mean, if they don’t know what a woman - 50% of the electorate - is how can they possibly lead the country?

That’s the thing those on the left quite like telling women how to think like this.

It’s not convincing. More of the same old from Labour lot.

The people on here all have a vote if they are UK citizens so who the fuck are you to tell us that things we feel are important to vote for or against, are not important enough to be a defining issue?

Anyone who wants to persuade me back to voting Labour - and I suggest you try because my vote could matter more than you like to think - is welcome to make their case. But I must warn you that insults and guilt tripping are not going to work. You have 18 months.

I don't particularly think Labour has the wherewithal to make any material difference should they win the next election which they just might because of the current shit show of a government but people who are prepared to vote for the tories because they 'know what a woman is' is rather quite bemusing. Just say you're going to vote tory and relieve yourself of the mental gymnastics.

@LlynTegid I can't see the SNP vote collapsing to Labour because Labour have nothing to offer SNP voters. Scottish Labour are unionists and they fervently back TWAW (and we all know how that has gone for the SNP and their dwindling membership).

As for 'Voting ID is designed to reduce the non-Tory vote' - I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Wasn't it Labour that tried to bring in ID cards that would have amounted to the same and more?

The press don't need a 'red scare' story they have the gift that is TWAW, erosion of child safe guarding, Isla Fisher, Barbie Kardashian, the Scottish butcher abduction story, children being taught in school there are 78 genders, drag queen story time etc etc and I'm sure there will be many, many more quotable gems from David Lammy et al on the subject as well.

The reason it's going to be a deciding factor is not because people care about the issue but because KS looks like an utter twerp whenever he is asked to define a woman. The media love to make prospective leaders look foolish. If you remember a man actually lost an election because he looked like an idiot when he ate a bacon sandwich.
KS looks shifty and foolish every time he is asked to define a woman. He will be asked to define a woman in every election interview in order to make him look shifty and foolish.
Even Boris looked funny but foolish. KS just looks nervous and foolish. Not a good look for voters

That isn't what we are saying, it is what senior Labour figures are saying (according to the article)

I guess they have noted the situation in Scotland.

I always find it odd how posters criticising FWR in FWR think it is an echo chamber.

I’m a swing voter. You know, the sort that the mainstream parties usually chase after in the run up to an election.

If an election were called tomorrow, this would be the defining issue for my vote.

And yet the SNP are falling apart atm. And Penny M thought the same.

It doesn’t bother me as I’m glad but I can’t see much good for those who shout about echo chambers as a form of an argument.

I'm afraid I think a hung parliament could be even worse for women. Whatever I might think of their motives, Labour do at least seem to be starting to wake up to what they've done. I see no such signs from any other centre left parties and the thought of what deals might be brokered to win power makes my blood run cold.

That's what Nicola Sturgeon thought. And Penny Mordaunt in the Tory leadership election.

It boggles my mind that you think this is going to be a defining issue of the next election. Get out of your echo chambers!

The Tories are certainly using this as an election issue and many are jumping on the bandwagon.

As if Labour have got us into this current mess! ALL of what we all see in the destruction of womens rights is happening under a Tory Govt, my own experience is of womens DV refuge's, 50% of women seeking help are turned away, DV murder rate increasing, funding slashed Con tactic "Divert to TWAW"

oh and please don't mention rape stats and 3 years to go to trial (if it ever does)

BUT instead of laying the blame on the Tories, much like the GFC, Brexit or the 3 day week its "Labours fault..."

I didn't realise we are all so stupid.

@BloodyHellKen I think a hung parliament is a real possibility, unless the SNP vote collapses to Labour in Scotland. Voting ID is designed to reduce the non-Tory vote, then you have some red scare the press and media are saving, no doubt.

Such a good post - especially this:
I can’t think of any other rights area which is so focussed on individuals, or so dismissive of genuine community values (eg safeguarding for children and other vulnerable members of our society). #nodebate is hardly the hallmark of great socialist or liberal politics.