Labour ‘must fix its trans stance to win the next election’ - party needs to clarify its policies to be closer to the public’s views on the debate

I think Keir Starmer is hoping very much that the Conservatives are stupid enough to try and use Gender Politics as an election issue

LOL of course he is. That’s why he’s trying to reverse ferret.

The Tories know a wedge issue when they see one.

Well, @Kucinghitam, Labour may not be claiming Brexit is a but it does have a "5-point plan to Make Brexit Work". It's on the party's official website.

As Keir Starmer says "Britain will not go back into the EU. We will not be joining the single market. We will not be joining a customs union."

At least 90% of the public have no particular interest in the trans 'debate', including older women. A party's stance on it is not going affect election outcomes. I don't get how everyone involved in all sides fails to realise this.
I'm mystified by this. What do you think brought Sturgeon down?

Keep telling yourself that, if it helps. The SNP told itself the same, then shed a third of its membership in a year, thanks to the GRR. Penny Mordaunt told herself that, and lost the Tory leadership contest, having been a front runner.

Are most of the electorate going to vote on the basis of a party’s stance on self ID? No

Are enough of the electorate going to be influenced by this debate for it to cost Labour? Well, let’s see.

Self ID isn’t just about the issue itself, it’s also about credibility, competence and common sense. Do you think there are many Red Wall voters who think that men can grow a cervix (David Lammy) or that a rapist can be a woman? The privileged young people who espouse these ideas are heavily concentrated in a few constituencies that will vote Labour anyway. Electorally, Labour has nothing to gain from shouting that TWAW, and much to lose. Starmer finally seems to have noticed that, but it is too late. They have nailed their colours to the mast.

Tories know how to prioritise 1-2 issues to win.
The next elections will be decided almost entirely on immigration and women’s rights.

I mean, it's pink news but this video of starmer is pretty good evidence

www.thepinknews.com/2021/06/10/keir-starmer-labour-party-gender-recognition-act-self-id-trans-people-pride/

2 minutes 25 seconds on the video.

“We’re campaigning to ensure conversion therapy is banned once and for all, and we’re committed to updating the GRA to introduce self-declaration for trans people.”

I think you might be surprised.

The DM's coverage of this issue has significantly ramped up the public discussion.

I loathe the DM with a passion but it's a widely read paper and it's making a difference. And in this instance, I'm glad.

Now I need to lie in a darkened room.......

Unfortunately there is a fair wallop of long term evidence that Labour are full on TWAW and will support self ID, Stephen Whittle's comment about what has been promised by Labour to the political TQ+ lobby being one of them, part of the 'cosy backroom cup of tea' deals done. Waiting until they put it on paper and sign it before believing them is probably a bit naive tbh.

Unfortunately too, any political party hoping they can just not talk about this and fight an election leaving it to one side is dreaming. And the Tories have been handed an open goal.

NS failed to realise the problem at all. And Penny M

Fine, they’re gone, but they both seemed blindsided by the issue.

If no one had been impacted so far these posts might be more relevant.

Where does Labour say their policy is TWAW and they will introduce Self-Id ?

I think Keir Starmer is hoping very much that the Conservatives are stupid enough to try and use Gender Politics as an election issue.

At least 90% of the public have no particular interest in the trans 'debate', including older women. A party's stance on it is not going affect election outcomes. I don't get how everyone involved in all sides fails to realise this.

They need to start talking about safeguarding.

Until they do, I don't believe a word of this.

Sistanotcista

It's awful isn't it. Of their own free will they have come out with such drivel. Now either these MPs are lying (but just spouting what they have been told too), are desperately lacking in critical thinking skills and in one or two cases just outright misogyny

I don't much care which, because any option means I can't trust them with my vote.

@PronounssheRa - this made horrifying reading. It's one thing knowing the Labour Party broadly believe TWAW, but see all those patently unscientific statements collated in one place made very frightening reading. Wow!

I feel the same.

Various political parties are declaring things which to me are a load of absolute delusional bonkersness.

For example in my personal opinion (1) "Brexit is a brilliant buccaneering big-British-bollocks success" and (2) "Male humans are indistinguishable from female humans with the exception that their special feelings are more important" are just as insane as (3) "The moon is made of green cheese."

I know that some posters will be Very Angry that I unpatriotically disagree with Statement 1, others will be Horrified by my cruelty in disbelieving Statement 2, and there may even be some who are Shocked that I don't accept Statement 3. But parties who tell me any of those statements will find me thoroughly disinclined to lend them my vote, no matter the amount of scolding that their supporters heap upon my head.

I'd also like Jess Philips to apologise for changing the femicide list she has been given the honour of reading out to include a child who didn't belong there before they'd even been buried for political point scoring.

Yeah if any Labour supporters seriously want to win me back then chastisement is really dumb. And guilt tripping or 'What about the Tories' isn't going to cut it either.

@HermioneWeasley that's a great list!

Am a similar swing voter in a margin area. Chastising me like some on this thread, really isn't the way forward. I don't owe my vote to anybody.

I am a floating voter in a bellweather constituency. Last time the conservative MP won by 600 votes, increasing his margin from 200 the previous election. I am exactly the sort of voter Labour need to win over, but I do not trust them with women’s rights and so I will not vote for them.

here are some things Labour could do to help rebuild that trust with me

• Keir starmer apologise for saying that “it shouldn’t be said” that only women have a cervix.
• for Labour MPs to all affirm their commitment to a biological definition of “women” and to keeping, and strengthing, the single sex exemptions in the equality act
• for them to invite back Joan Smith into her advisor position and them to invite Karen Ingala Smith and all the other women banned for knowing what a woman is, to rejoin the party
• to publicly back Rosie Duffield and apologise for the craven cowardice up to now
• for Alex Sobel, Lisa Nandy, David Lammy etc to apologise for the awful things they’ve said and say they were wrong or be expelled from the party (like Karen Ingala Smith was)
• for them to publicly acknowledge the harm of medically transitioning children
• for them to work with the TUC to change all the anti woman policies that have infiltrated trade unions and the workplace
• For them to thank Maya Forstarter for her hard won battle to protect the rights of female workers and all workers who understand how babies are made

that would be a start

anything less will not convince me they are remotely sincere

Absolutely agree and it's not just women the left like to use as a scapegoat - remember Brexit was the fault of old people?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43364331

This happens a fair bit, it did with the last GE.

Labour rarely look to own faults but blame the electorate

My deeply cynical self can also see a future where if the disaffected former labour voting middle aged women refuse to return to the fold it will be 'our fault' for any future conservative government.

Oh definitely. It's an extension of the argument already used by pretty much every Labour activist who posts on this board. I think it's because they still haven't grasped that, if women have lost trust in Labour then that is entirely Labour's fault, not ours.

I think Labour is very wedded to TWAW at grass roots level. There's a push at the moment to try and get the party to adopt a definition of transphobia. I don't think there's a definition being consulted on, just a push to have one. Where this goes and what it says would be very telling.
The wake up call that the vote of the 'progressives' is not sufficient to win an election may be being sounded now, but I can't see a position that Labour can take that will bring this particular issue to an acceptable equilibrium.
My deeply cynical self can also see a future where if the disaffected former labour voting middle aged women refuse to return to the fold it will be 'our fault' for any future conservative government.
I personally would want any legislation to bring in self ID firmly ruled out and a promise to guidance that is clear and unequivocal around single sex provision of services.

Spot on @nilsmousehammer

And there you have the sound common sense which one would expect of Miss Eyelesbarrow. Miss Marple's confidence was never misplaced.

The 'know what a woman' question is actually fundamental. Since I am now seriously having to choose an elected representative and governing party on the actual criteria of 'do you have a grip on reality' as the main qualification.

I mean at this point sod the bloody policies, the question really might as well be 'how intact is your sanity'? These are the crumbs we are down to in trying to choose the least bloody awful options for government.