Labour ‘must fix its trans stance to win the next election’ - party needs to clarify its policies to be closer to the public’s views on the debate

I think Karen Ingala Smith was finally allowed to join after - if my memory is correct - 4 or 5 attempts.

I applaud her determination and her resilience while having absolutely no intention of trying to rejoin myself.

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Perhaps MNHQ could arrange another webchat with Starmer?

<reports post to attract attention of MNHQ>

There is a piece in the Mail Online today about "18 demands" issued to Keir Starmer by a "Muslim vote group" said to be responsible for getting scores of councillors into office. If he does not agree to their demands, he can kiss their votes goodbye.

May be this is what we, women and women of Mumsnet, need to be doing.

Revealed: The '18 DEMANDS' Muslim Vote group issued to Keir Starmer after dozens of pro-Gaza activists were elected to councils across UK - from cutting military ties with Israel to 'ensuring insurance quotes don't cost more for someone called Muhammad' | Daily Mail Online

That's such a generalization though.

You can be overwhelmingly socially left, but because you reject gender ideology you are now a socially right party?

Shows how much the left care about this one issue (while ironically accusing the right of fighting a 'culture war').

I also recall that the charter was endorsed by a number of leadership and deputy leadership candidates, including Angela Rayner and Lisa Nandy.
And Thornbury.

Got me it’s trust. If they have merrily been looking us in the eye and telling us that humans can change care they are liars, very very stupid or bought.

As someone before said, for me the trans issue is about safeguarding children. The large number of vulnerable children with mental health issues who have jumped on the social contagion issue that changing your gender will fix all those issues. It won't. They need help, counselling, accepting themselves not feeling the need to chop healthy breasts off, taking puberty blockers etc. Many are autistic or have other diagnosis and need care.

The very loud men in dresses are ridiculous. The children with issues are completely different.

How can we trust Labour? Dragged us into the Iraq war and now their war on women.

Lefty feminists were also derided as a hate group by Tories such as Christian Blunt, Maria Miller, Penny Mordant - but they all get forgotten because it's convenient for staying on message.

Women's rights are a progressive task, because traditionally women didn't have rights. That's why there has been an alliance between progressivism and women's rights for the past few decades, because you needed to have a mind for change to believe women were worth anything at all. Gender ideology has disrupted that, and the right is making hay while it can (ie before everyone remembers that they believe in manly men who work and womenly women who look pretty and defer to their husbands, a la Lauren Southern).

It's going to be interesting to see how fast the interest in women's rights will be dropped as the centre left distances itself from genderism. Who knows, maybe we'll go full horseshoe - after all, it was Jamie Willis who came out as Britain's first transgender MP after his car accident in which he was found intoxicated & wearing feminine clothing, which demonstrates that the Tory MPs do indeed claim social firsts in unexpected ways.

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I agree with you both

Well said, it terrifies me too.

The one thing I feel increasingly strongly about is that I will not be told how I vote. I don't know yet who I will vote for, but I will not have it dictated to me by a man.

The nonsense spouted by men of privilege, such as LOJ and Jonathan Liew and certain MPs recently, suggests that because their views differ from mine I must therefore be "right-wing" (the same with JKR and Julie Bindel - women who have always stood at the heart of left-wing politics in a far more proactive and discernable way than either of those Guardian males).

Women in this country died and were tortured so that I could have the vote. Men do not get to define my politics or the politics of any other woman.

The fact the major political parties have responded and are responding so poorly to this crisis facing women will almost certainly feed into how I and so many other women choose to cast our vote in this election but it will not change our politics.

We can only hope that, some day, our politicians distance themselves from this misogynistic movement and that those who championed it might finally gain some insight into which wing they - not I - belonged to.

This is why one reason I have a lot of time for Labour Women's Declaration. I've never seen them disparage other women fighting the same fight.

To be fair the "heads girls" description was a direct response to disparagement of Kellie Jay Keen who is fighting the same corner from a different aspect. She herself is criticised often for the opinions of others, yet remains single issue women's rights. I think again and again those who speak publicly need to stick to the issues rather than their own tribal affiliations.

Well spotted on that Communist Party quote. That's pretty much the sort of thing I've been looking to sign up to!

And now they are derided as "head girls," often on this very board. So they can't win with either tribe - which is an excellent reflection of where women's rights actually live in the endless right/left nonsense.

For me it's not so much "trolley vs sane" as "will you deny reality if it doesn't match your ideology because you ultimately believe the ideology has the greater truth through its moral rightness, that messy reality will fall in line if we all just believe hard enough, and anyone trying to push the focus back to reality is motivated by at best lack of understanding and at worst a nefarious desire to stop the better future promised by the ideology "

And the latter fucking terrifies me because it's the mindset that does terrible terrible things to real people in the here and now because they believe it's justified to bring about a theoretical better future.

I believe problems began with the GRA and aspects of the EA, both of which were brought about under Labour.

But that aside, I agree with you and would like to add that in the U.K. the Communist Party has a reasonable stance on women/sex and gender without being “far right” obviously.

In a March 2023 statement opposing the Scottish Gender Recognition Reform Bill, the party stated that

"The Communist Party is the only political party with a coherent political analysis of sex and gender. Gender as an ideological construct should not be confused or conflated with the material reality of biological sex. Gender is the vehicle through which misogyny is enacted and normalised. Gender identity ideology is well-suited to the needs of the capitalist class, focusing as it does on individual as opposed to collective rights, enabling and supporting the super-exploitation of women.

If I recall correctly, lefty feminists pushing back, such as WPUK, were described as a 'hate group' by a Labour trans rights charter that called for their (WPUK) supporters to be driven out of the party. I also recall that the charter was endorsed by a number of leadership and deputy leadership candidates, including Angela Rayner and Lisa Nandy.

(Edited for more clarity)

There is an ongoing campaign to make out that the U.K. is JUST like the US, where there is a clear left/right divide on trans issues. The fact that this doesn't work here - our gender ideology problems started under a Tory government, and the first people pushing back were lefty feminists - doesn't stop some from trying their luck.

I agree, the issue boils down to “ are you off your trolley or are you sane?” Why anyone would vote for a party that has gone completely nuts is beyond me, if they would tell a bare faced lie about something so fundamental then how could you ever believe a word that comes out of their mouths again? These people could be in charge a country at war ffs!