The Witch Trials of JK Rowling

I think that both Natalie's and Noah's problem is that they think feelings trump biological reality. And that society must bend to accord with their feelings .
Noah sounds like another lost (presumably butch) lesbian. I hope Noah finds happiness but I am not neutralising the language of my biological reality for Noah's benefit.
Natalie seems like a nice person but doesn't respect my boundaries. Natalie is fed up of calling out the bad guys: the ones that record women peeing in the bathroom or film themselves wanking in women's bathrooms. It must be so tiresome because there appear to be so many of them.

I've just listened to the episodes so far over the last few days.

One thing I found really jarring with Noah is how young they are and then re-realising the timelines when they reflect back. They are 17 but only just - they were still 16 when they had a bilateral double mastectomy just 3 months ago.

They talk about going through a phrase of being obsessed with watching transition videos on YouTube at 11! This is a child who has so many mental health diagnoses - anxiety, depression, OCD, ADHD - being left to the whims of the Internet. Anyway, that truly shocked me.

Contrapoints, I cannot decide whether they genuinely cannot grasp what JKR has said, as in they lack the intellect, or whether it is a wilful misunderstanding based on malice. I tend towards the latter. They did not come across well.

Yes, it does feel like a good explanation for some of the zeitgeist.

Come to think of it, gender ideology as it's taught in schools is entirely built on a foundation of individual 'feelings' isn't it?

That’s a really interesting analysis - it makes sense of quite a few things that have been puzzling me of late, especially the strong negative reactions to both JKR and KJK. Thanks for taking the time to answer my question.

@Righthandcider Thank you v much for the link; I’ll make time to listen to that 👍 It’s a fascinating proposition that does seem to fit with what I see happening in the world (and with the interviewees in Ep 6) 🤔

I really dislike the ‘every link with picture’ function seemingly now happening automatically, need the visual clarity of plain text. Off to Site Stuff

Contrapoints didn’t think about anyone’s needs but her own

I wrote this above. I meant to repeat the name but not to use the posessive ‘her’ there, but I was thinking of the interviewee’s name, Natalie, not the work name, Contrapoints, and it is reflex for me to say ‘her’ with Natalie. However I usually try to avoid using preferred pronouns because, rohypnol. This is the link for the excellent short article about that if anyone has not already read it: https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

since I can’t go back to edit on MN this is my edit post.

Listened to Ep 6. Both the interviewees were interesting to listen to although Natalie less so than Noah because I have heard it all before. Natalie's happy to undermine or dismiss the significance of women's boundaries so it's the same old same old. Noah was more interesting. Clearly an intelligent and articulate person. But the "gender journey" nonsense is obviously parroted from therapists who thought an emotionally challenged teenager would only start to feel better after body mutilation and drugs. I hope both of them find happiness but not at the expense of my boundaries
This constant attempt to equate this to the battle for gay marriage is just tiresome at this point.

I listened yesterday and didn't find it as difficult to do so as expected. Phelps-Roper was very low key in her challenges but I thought they were quite effective nevertheless. When she mentioned how open discussion and dialogue had helped her change her mind, it was open to the listener to interpret whether she was associating WBC with JKR or with transactivism. Contrapoints automatically assumed the former, I tended to assume the latter (I hope not just out of personal bias but because JKR has explained her views, it's not just about her and what suits her, and she has said in this series that she constantly questions whether she is right. Contrapoints, on the other hand, had no arguments other than JKR's lack of agreement with the demands of trans ideology and did not feel that JKR had any right to state her views.)

Noah was far less annoying than Contrapoints but the interview made me feel very sad. Such a young, but bright and articulate person, has so much time ahead for regrets. I hope sincerely that there aren't many.

In case anyone's interested.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001j43d

They both (Contrapoints more so than Noah) seem to think that Rowling did not arrive at her views by rational means and that the only correct (rational) position for Rowling would be for her to change her mind and agree with them.

I suspect this is because they value feelings over rational thought when arriving at their own conclusions. They therefore assume JKR has done the same.

There was an interesting programme on R4 a few weeks back about the idea of a cultural shift away from objective truth to 'feelings', and the concept of 'my truth' in society. A couple of students talk about how feelings are the foundation of all their thought.

Many young people feel JKR must be transphobic to have said anything that threatens to burst the all-important TWAW TMAM bubble, so they seek facts to prove her transphobia. They haven't found any in her actual words so they conclude (because they've already made their minds up) that she must simply be motivated to say non-transphobic things from a starting point of unacknowledged transphobia.

I've seen the same thing on other FWR threads about Kelly Jay Keen. Posters who say 'KJK hates trans people' but who are unable to articulate exactly what she's said that proves this. Their answer seems to be that the hate-filled subtext is 'obvious'.

CP and Noah are saying the same thing, albeit in milder terms. JKR hasn't actually said anything transphobic but I still feel she must have misguided transphobic motivations and if I talked to her about how it makes us feel, her feelings will change and then she will think differently.

Yes, good points. I am enjoying the narrative element as well.

Finished Ep 6 (by playing it on 2x speed to get through it quickly).

From my understanding both interviewees were of the opinion that Rowling came to her views without properly listening to trans people and that her speaking about the issues in public is wrong. Noah allowed that Rowling receiving lots of bad and negative responses to her tweets is showing the trans community in a bad light but (my understanding of Noah’s logic is) this means Rowling should stop tweeting about the issue 🤷‍♀️

They both (Contrapoints more so than Noah) seem to think that Rowling did not arrive at her views by rational means and that the only correct (rational) position for Rowling would be for her to change her mind and agree with them.

Noah seemed more charitable towards non-believers (and came across as thoughtful/pleasant in comparison to Contrapoints).

Phelps-Roper mentioned on a couple of occasions that open discussion and dialogue with non-believers was what helped her disassociate from what she described as her hateful bigoted views. She mentions this when talking with both interviewees about whether or not they would like to discuss issues of disagreement with Rowling. Is Phelps-Roper (consciously or unconsciously) associating the views she held as a member of the WBC as being equivalent in timbre/character to Rowling’s beliefs/stance? I wasn’t clear on that and would appreciate other analyses 🤔

Night all!

I don't know if it's intentional but I found the difference between Noah and Natalie's views quite an interesting choice and likely to provoke more discussion.

For example, Natalie says JKR is wrong infer that young people seeking to transition should receive help for anxiety/depression etc first as those issues are a result of their trans-ness and will be resolved with transition.

Noah clearly states that transitioning "helped" but did not "cure" the anxiety and co-morbid conditions they faced.

I also appreciate the presentation of the podcast as a narrative and not a series of "us and them" interviews. It's an invitation for wider discussion and reflection rather than desperately trying to add another barrage of opinion to a heated debate.

I finished listening to the episode and I really liked Noah. It was very hard to listen to when I believe Noah has been so sadly let down by the medical profession. 17 is so so young. Already Noah seemed like a very thoughtful and intelligent young person, but at 17 you just can't know what it's like to be an adult. You have no perspective on how much growing up you have left to do. It's so sad that kids like Noah can't just experiment without closing those doors back to a healthy, whole body. It just shouldn't be an option.

I’m 30 minutes in and Contrapoints seems to be arguing that JK Rowling has a big social following/media presence and therefore shouldn’t ask questions about or discuss trans ideology because that’s an irresponsible use of public speech and shows a lack of interest in trans people’s lives.

However, Contrapoints, who also has quite a large social following (for a YouTuber) and media presence, IS allowed to discuss the topic of women’s rights because, unlike JK Rowling, Contrapoints does not have disguised bad intentions.

The Contrapoints interview is confusing - cancel culture is bad and traumatising when it happens to Contrapoints but not when it happens to JK Rowling because Rowling (like other celebrities) is wealthy and famous and should be above it all….🤷‍♀️

One typically masculine in behaviour, one typically feminine in my mind.

That struck me, too. I thought Megan's approach was fine - the weakness of the logic in CP's position and the heartbreaking misplaced trust in the medical/counselling professionals of Noah were clearly exposed, but without TRAs being able to claim that MP-R had somehow manipulated them or how they expressed themselves.

I keep flip-flopping when it comes to my opinion of the podcast. On the one hand I think it’s smart to let everyone just speak for themselves with no leading questions or challenge. I particularly loved the episode that dived into internet culture driven by 4chan and Tumblr.

But on the other hand, it’s so frustrating when a section gets tantalisingly close to a key issue on which no one can fence sit and and I think finally, here we go… and then they skirt around it.

I need to re listen but both interviewees seemed like a bingo cards-worth of transactivist slogans and transition tropes.

Very much so!

Yes I have enjoyed Megan Phelps-Roper too. At first I wanted her to ask more challenging questions in this latest episode but I think her interviewing style is very clever - just enough 'ahmms' and 'hmms' in response to answers to leave space for the listener to draw their own conclusions.

I thought her personal experience in regard to challenging 'no debate' was particularly relevant too.

Wasn't it interesting to compare Natalie and Noah's responses to JKR? One like a bull in a china shop ranting and raving about bigotry with no significant insight into the similarities in being cancelled. The other thoughtful, nuanced and considered, trying to see the best in JKR despite a difference of opinion.

One typically masculine in behaviour, one typically feminine in my mind.

Also, as JammiDodger came up in Noah’s list of influences

I recognised the voice and think I've seen some of their reels - if it's who I think it is (a doctor? Hopefully not a medical one), there's not many TRA accounts who have more stupid, infuriating, ill-informed opinions than that one. I did worry for Noah at that point.

That’s exactly what I took from the Noah section too. Blind faith in doctors on the part of the parents and child on what is clearly not a medical issue, but a psychological and cultural/political one. Where is the evidence that a young person feeling suicidal is going to be permanently made to feel happy long term by having permanent physical surgery?

I also felt Megan Phelps Roper made a really good interviewer in this episode. She didn’t need to challenge them. Contrapoints didn’t think about anyone’s needs but her own. The charges against JKR were daft- that someone could misuse the facts JKR highlighted, so those facts shouldn’t be said. Right OK. Hoisted by Contrapoint’s own petard.

Noah I felt really sad for, the sadness that Noah had felt as a teen and the way that the unresolved distress was now going to physically define Noah’s body and self image forever. Everything said by Noah made the case without needing to push journalistically, that Noah was way to young to be making these permanent changes with any certainty of a positive outcome. I really hope that Noah is right.

I think Noah's dad was concerned about Noah's ability to pass as a transman. That he had trans friends who didn't pass in everyday life and that made life harder for them.

I actually thought Noah's parents sounded fairly kind and reasonable from Noah's relaying of the story. Concerned generally but supportive when suicide arose as a potential issue and - honestly I can't say I would be any different as a parent in that situation if it were my child.

The thing that made me angry (not at Noah) was the amount of naive trust Noah placed in doctors and the health professionals they had seen. Noah said they would probably not have gone ahead with such huge irreversible surgery if it hadn't been confirmed by medics as the right thing to do in this situation. I hope there are enough lawsuits cropping up to make doctors stop and seriously think about the 'care' they are providing.

I need to re listen but both interviewees seemed like a bingo cards-worth of transactivist slogans and transition tropes.

IME female teens who take on a trans identity are overwhelmingly like Noah, smart, articulate, socially awkward, information sponges who learn the language of therapy speak online and use it against their parents in getting the cosmetic alterations they want.

As for not meeting the ‘beauty standard’ that might well be Noah’s Instagram fuelled interpretation of a parent pointing out (gently) that Noah is unlikely to ever be perceived as male in general day to day interactions if Noah is obviously female-sized and female-shaped.
Transitions that appear successful online are often much less successful in real life, and while breasts can be amputated, hips, thighs, arm length, hand size etc cannot be surgically altered.

(the only way my teeny-tiny 16 year old DsD can pass as male is as a prepubescent boy - which she then scuppers with a lip piercing and purple hair! Me pointing this out is no doubt discussed amongst her friends as mean stepmother attempting to ‘enforce mainstream male beauty standards’ when really I’m trying to discourage her from using the men’s loos because she is clearly & unequivocally female and it’s not safe for her to do so 🤦‍♀️)

Also, as JammiDodger came up in Noah’s list of influences, I would wager the Noah name is a homage to JammiDodger’s real life friend and fellow YouTuber, ‘Noahfince ’

So much for social contagion not being real, huh?

Yes. Their reliance on the doctor's' recommendations doesn't bode well.

It's the refrain of every detransitioner.

I think you'll be fine. Natalie and Noah talk - a lot. So, although what they say is sometimes frustrating, it comes and goes, if you see what I mean.