The Witch Trials of JK Rowling

It feels almost inevitable that Noah will come to regret this treatment.

The stand out for me was the doctor telling Noah that the cause of all the issues was gender.

And the treatment was naturally to take off Noah's breasts.

Noah hadn't had any inclination towards this until the doctor said that was the diagnosis. On what diagnostic is a doctor making this diagnosis?

I felt sick listening to Noah's interview. I really did. There is no stopping these ghouls.

I haven't finished listening to Noah's interview yet, but something that struck me in Natalie's was that she expressed a belief that [people like JK Rowling] believe that disrupting the notion of gender and making things more jumbled up with the intent to allow people freedom to be who they are without feeling bound by stereotypes - that this will cause people to become violent and predatory in toilets, and therefore people like JK Rowling are afraid of gender shake up.

But that's not right. First of all it doesn't make any sense - why would breaking down the boundaries of gender or whatever just randomly cause people to become violent? It doesn't make any sense because that's not what radical feminists are arguing, nor what they are "afraid" of.

What the real issue is is that male violence and misogyny are endemic. A significant percentage of men (and I don't know or even think it particularly matters whether we are talking about 60%, 20%, 1%, 0.1% - significant because misogyny affects every woman and male violence affects almost every woman and some children) do not see women as fully human and feel entitled to control them, grope them, rape them, as it suits them.

But nobody outside feminist circles acknowledges this! It's like some big secret that everyone colludes in. Like oh, well, yeah, sorry that happened to you, but that was just one bad man, rather than seeing the widespread pattern. Like family annihilations being "an isolated event". Like the police being misogynist suddenly being in the news and being a surprise to everyone, when every organisation is misogynist!

It's not that gender obfuscation is likely to change this pattern, it probably won't. But it's already really hard to talk about gendered violence and sex discrimination, to study it, to get people to see it. Making it taboo to place people into groups by their biological sex, erasing language that denotes biological sex, making out that biological sex "isn't binary" or doesn't matter makes that even harder. And I think it's incredibly important for us (as a society) to understand.

Also, the effect of growing up in patriarchy and rape culture should absolutely be explored as to how it is affecting young GNC women and girls, because a lot of the discomfort and distress young trans boys and NB girls express sounds way more like "It's unbearable to grow up in this environment with this body". (Which I think most TRAs would agree with. It's just we have a different understanding of what "this environment" is.)

They think that deconstructing gender will magically disperse stereotypes but that is not how sexism works. Sexism is not just based on stereotypes which came out if nowhere. Those stereotypes are based on people either being in the "person" (male, adult) class or the "object/property" (female, child) class.

I meant this episode in particular though I have been listening to the others slowly too.

I've been listening weekly as it comes out, I don't think I could listen to all at once. But if you're catching up put it on and have a break if you need. There is about 6 to 7 hours of it so far. There are also embedded ad breaks on Google Podcasts, so there are some natural breaks.

Does it help to listen in instalments for this one? I am a little worried about it.

Yes I thought the same. Noah just reinforced everything that JK Rowling said, I wanted MFR to be more challenging, but appreciate she is trying to tread a fine balance. Noah said I'd had counselling for ages, for a year, I could've screamed, a year is a tiny amount of time.

I have been very worked up since listening to the interview with Noah, to the point of being snappy and mean with my (actually much loved) family members. I found it very distressing.
Two things stood out for me. One was Noah saying he found it unbearable to be perceived as a woman. Noah is seventeen years old. What he was experiencing was the sexualisation of a tween- and teenaged girl. It makes me so angry that the men who were perceiving this child "as a woman" suffer no repercussions, while Noah is left bearing so much suffering as a result.
The other was Noah saying that one of his father's concerns was that, if Noah transitioned, they would not, "meet the beauty standard." I hope I've mis-remembered, or misunderstood, or something, because I can't get my head around a parent having those sorts of aspirations and values in relation to their (then) daughter.
I did once work with a young woman who was questioning whether she was trans. She told me that, when she came out (as a lesbian) to her mother her mother didn't have a problem wit it, "but she told me, whatever I did, I better not become one of those ugly, butch women."

If you read Megan's book about her childhood and her ultimate rejection of the Westboro Baptist Church, I think you get a good sense of why she doesn't go in all guns blazing.

I just listened to it and it was incredibly powerful. She's a very brave, fiercely intelligent woman and obviously such a genuinely good person. I think JK Rowling said she had read her book, too, and for me it's obvious why she would be willing to talk to her, although I don't think she's a journalist per se.

I don't think the podcast is supposed to be an argument for or against one side or the other, it's just conversations without hostility and attempts to steel man both perspectives.

Maybe she'll give a sense of her own thoughts in the last episode but I wouldn't be too surprised if she didn't.

I know it's Megan's job to get people talking, but, so far, JKR's position has been misunderstood and/or misrepresented by everyone except herself.

Yes, and that troubles me. I think Megan has been so desperate to take a neutral stance, she hasn’t challenged anyone about anything. Talk about splinters in her arse.

I hadn’t heard of her before this podcast. What kind of work has she done in the past to prove her interviewing ability? JKR must have chosen her for a reason, right?

I hope the final episode goes back to JKR and really gives her the floor.

Noah is 17 and fascinating. Understands the issues and seemed mature beyond their years. However, had 'top surgery' three months prior to the interview and admitted to mental health issues alongside the dysphoria.

This interview was heart-breaking. At 17 Noah still has no insight into the enormity of what they have done to their body and what they have given up. When Noah was talking about self-harming their body prior to transition, it was hard not to shout “and what do you think removing your healthy breasts is?” It was so sad. It’s clear their parents were urging caution. They’re so early in their transition, I sense Noah will eventually bump back down to Earth at some point, possibly in the next few years. I suppose at least Noah may be comforted by knowing how hard their parents tried to steer them on a less invasive path and also they seem sufficiently thoughtful to unpack it all. I hope they’re OK and continue to be well supported by their parents.

I have less time for contrapoints. Same old tired talking points and zero consideration of anyone else’s needs.

It was a funny old episode. Perhaps it will only make sense when next week’s completes the set.

Yes, I would have liked Megan to ask them both what specifically JKR has said that they find so objectionable.

Likewise all the other people providing soundbite responses to her 'transphobia'.

I know it's Megan's job to get people talking, but, so far, JKR's position has been misunderstood and/or misrepresented by everyone except herself.

And whilst I'm sure she will have her moment, I would have liked to see the fumbling required by her detractors when asked outright.

As it was, the gentle questioning elicited things like it's not what she says, it's people who misinterpret what she says, or the people who take what she says and roll with it, or she's not actually saying what she really means.

But it was glossed over.

I hope it's held up for more scrutiny.

Megan Phelps-Roper did not challenge her interviewees much, and what challenging there was was very gentle. I was left with the clear impression that she was working on their ground, on their terms and basically allowing them to give a full picture of who they were. She was probably not wrong to do this. The striking part was that I can not recall one bit of the podcast where either of the interviewees showed any consideration whatsoever for anyone other than themselves. Certainly, they did not address critically even one of the substantive issues that JKR has raised. Not one.

Phelps-Roper talks about Contrapoints "critiquing" JKR. But then goes on to play what is simply a reflection on how CP feels about it. CP talks about her impressions, and what effect she perceives JKR's comments as having had. That's not a critique. Sneering at a gross misrepresentation of someone's position is also not a critique. CP seems to show no insight whatsoever, not a glimmer of understanding that JKR is not arguing "against trans people" or that she herself has not actually engaged with any of the issues JKR articulated. She doesn't even seem to know what they are.

I am really looking forward to the next part.

I watched the recommended episode but kept being distracted by the 18th c. Marie Antoinette dress and powdered wig and lorgnette. And at the end Contrapoints, fully dressed, was lying in a bathtub of water still talking.

Good Lord. Talk about stereotypes.

Funnily enough Noah's parents said something like can't you just be masculine and wear male clothes, without transitioning? Presumably trying to address the stereotypes.

Noah's response was something like no, I wanted to be called a male name and be addressed with male pronouns. Another one who needed the validation of everyone else in order to uphold their subjective fiction.

It doesn't work.

You can't make people do it, even if they are happy to. Some people will forget, and some people won't do it on principle.

You're setting yourself up for a lifetime of discontent. People should be telling these children that they cannot rely on other people for their self esteem.

“Joanne” is a TRA thing. It’s a jibe.

Potter fans used to call JKR “Jo” because they know that’s what she prefers. As a sign of disrespect, her haters starting calling her “Joanne” all over Tiktok and other social media.

That’s why the clips from CP’s YouTube channel sounded like they were aggressively spitting “Joanne” more often than necessary. During the interview it was back to “J.K. Rowling” and “Jo”.

Some years ago someone recommended Contrapoints as a good place for moderate opinions on these issues. I watched the recommended episode but kept being distracted by the 18th c. Marie Antoinette dress and powdered wig and lorgnette. And at the end Contrapoints, fully dressed, was lying in a bathtub of water still talking.

It was odd and I kept trying to understand what the additional messages in all that were supposed to be.

Yeah, I agree it got a bit dull. They were both a bit all over the shop, contradicting themselves. Unsurprising, because none of it makes sense.

And nobody is talking about the elephant in the room. The sexism. The reason a non conforming female teenager wanted to be more masculine? What was the reason? Why did it suddenly feel so right when throughout their entire childhood they'd been fine?

In the most recent section of episode 6 that I’ve listened to, I’ve heard Contrapoints explain the Wesboro Baptist Church to Megan Phelps-Roper and refer to JK Rowling as ‘Joanne’. This behaviour comes across to me as condescending 🤔

I also think Phelps-Roper is being less questioning than she has been in previous episodes - this episode is starting to feel more like a monologue than an interview.

I’m having to listen to this week’s episode in instalments because I find Contrapoints’ ‘woman’ voice really irritating and the points being made (so far) are disingenuous and entitled.

Yes, I suspect I will do the same when I listen to it, CP is a very irritating person on a number of levels.

Please affirm a complete denial of reality, which is highly detrimental to you, or we'll get violent. Ok? Okayyy.

Yeah, that doesn't work for me.

Contrapoints pretty much said this. Addressing the violence of TRAs said their self image is very fragile, they're insecure about it, and if people don't affirm it, then they get very upset.

I mean honestly, I shouldn't laugh. And at least they're being honest.

But really. Where do these people get off?

Please affirm a complete denial of reality, which is highly detrimental to you, or we'll get violent. Ok? Okayyy.

Noah loved Harry Potter because 'It was so hard living in the real world'. Noah is still very young and still not living in the real world. What a stark example of the dangers of young teens spending so much time online and what a shocking dereliction of duty from the medical professionals who pushed them into transition.

Like Noah, Contrapoints has no understanding at all of what JK Rowling has said. They have a fixed idea that she is simply prejudiced against transpeople and no concept of the fact that she has researched and listened and spent a huge amount of time thinking about this. They see this purely from their own perspective of their 'gender identity' their 'true self' with no thought that maybe the world doesn't revolve around them or care how they perceive themselves. It is all so shallow.

Contrapoints interview is full of the emotive stuff, the poor me, JK is turning people against us with her 'hate'. But there is absolutely no practicality. Contrapoints is not a teacher or manager of a gym or a parent having to deal with the safeguarding nightmare caused by trans men and women wanting to use the spaces reserved for the opposite sex. Trans people would be accepted by all but the truly 'transphobic' minority who don't like men in dresses if they acknowledged that gender is not sex and that sex segregation is necessary in certain circumstances. It really is very simple!

I am looking forward to Jk's response.

NW is used to being in complete control of how things are framed

Yes, I think this idea of controlling their image and the perception of it is at the heart of the whole ideology really.

Yeah. Apparently contrapoints came in for a lot of abuse from the trans community, themselves, for not being 100% TWAW.

You'd think it would give them a clue where women are coming from with regards to toilets, wouldn't you?

Why do they always choose Noah and Leo as names? It’s rather noticeable.