Kelly Holmes changes her mind on trans inclusion in women's sports?

Which is exactly what you said @maltravers !

Ferenczi’s notion of ‘identification with the aggressor’ comes into play here. The victimised individuals side with and take on the qualities of those who hurt and oppress them in an attempt to also be powerful.

A bit like taking part in a bit of bullying to keep on the right side of some nasty mates then.

Having pubicly come out and been embraced by the LGBT community - she is going to feel under a lot of pressure to accept the sentiments of that community; especially when so many LGB people see themselves as trans allies. Like many people her new found group acceptance trumps what she knows deep down to be right.

So if it doesn't matter, let transwomen in? Is safety not a thing anymore?

I am a bit late to the party on this, but I do know Kelly has had her head turned by the TQ+++ brigade. She is involed in several queer charities, her choice, but truly is letting down the side in many ways imo. I wonder if she, as a now self proclaimed lesbian would date an intact male who ids as a lesbian. One has to draw the line somewhere, including the main issue here... No to men in womens sport!

Meh, she was never very bright. I used to eat at her cafe and it was a very strange place with teeny tiny portions even my 5 year old was hungry afterwards.

Anyway, Kelly, I’ll just get my pompoms and cheer the guys shall I 🙄

I can’t believe this.

I LOVE Kelly Holmes - have always seen her as hugely inspirational and a huge success story after a litany of injuries.

I can’t believe she would pull the ladder up behind her like this.

Shes definitely been “educated”

I hope Sharron Davies gives her a bloody good talking to

Like bloody Megan Rapinoe

Perhaps winning shouldn't be the main focus in community sports, but if that is the case, it shouldn't be the main focus for men and boys, either. I tend to think that always losing is very bad for girls' mental health, though, and that is one of the quite likely outcomes from mixed sex categories in many types of sports.

So it matters when it might be unfair on male athletes.

Fucking hell, they're so blatant aren't they? Like the inheritance of titles thing here in the UK.

Shame. On. You. Kelly.

We all know how stupid he is. If (say) Andy Murray suddenly decided to ‘identify’ as a woman he could probably beat all the women as he is just stronger even now. But would it be fair? Of course not! Any professional athlete with any brain will tell you. To say that competing is the only thing that matters is ludicrous because the idea of sport is to win, even at amateur level. Just ask a bunch of kids to run a race and they all want to win. So where Kelly Holmes has got these lunatic ideas from I just don’t know. Maybe a reaction from the ultra competitive Olympics. But leave her to a nutty ideas

We all know how stupid he is. If (say) Andy Murray suddenly decided to ‘identify’ as a woman he could probably beat all the women as he is just stronger even now. But would it be fair? Of course not! Any professional athlete with any brain will tell you. To say that competing is the only thing that matters is ludicrous because the idea of sport is to win, even at amateur level. Just ask a bunch of kids to run a race and they all want to win. So where Kelly Holmes has got these lunatic ideas from I just don’t know. Maybe a reaction from the ultra competitive Olympics. But leave her to a nutty ideas

Most amateur athletes/ sports people I know do take it seriously and so train hard. People care about their position in a race. They care about their time compared to others. The ones who are good care deeply about winning, or winning their age and sex category.

The races I do publish age and sex category of each competitor so you can see how well you did compared to your peers. All that is meaningless if there are men in the women’s category.
we can’t all be professional athletes but don’t patronize amateur sports people. We know when the competition is unfair. We know when we are cheated out of a win we’ve worked hard for. This does matter.

It's not a nuanced issue. There's no need to try to create nuance. It's very simple and very obvious, and I've absolutely no time for anyone who pretends otherwise.

Agree absolutely but for some, losing financial opportunities as Sharron Davis has done for her principled stand on women's sport, is obviously asking too much.

Well, she's got her medals so pull the ladder up Jack and sod the rest.

Ah, here we have it.
Thought it was a bit odd.

Oh well, she's wrong on this, but I wish her happiness in her re-educated life.

I think this depends on the sport - and I'm talking specifically about a team contact sport. The competition is better in single sex for me, because I can be competitive in a way I can't against men due to their physicality. I play the mixed-sex version purely because it's fun and social and not serious.

I agree. I play tennis and the men aren't really that keen on playing with the women because they end up holding back. They never serve their hardest, the game is different.

Competing against a male competitively in a non-contact sport is bad enough - you get beaten despite trying your best, but in a contact sport you can't even play properly at all. You can't go in for hard tackles or headers without risking serious physical harm, so you back off entirely. You can't even enjoy the taking part or competing against your own previous performance. You just become a prop for someone else's enjoyment.

It's not a nuanced issue. There's no need to try to create nuance. It's very simple and very obvious, and I've absolutely no time for anyone who pretends otherwise.

I think people like this have got a mental block somewhere. So taking part is the only thing? Tell that to Kelly when she was competing for her Olympic medal. Would she have appreciated some guy who identified as a woman running against her? Absolute cobblers! Men are men and women are women physically and a man cannot become a woman. I do notice there are not too many men who want to become women in Iran, are there?

So only top athletes should be protected in contact sports Kelly? Joker, lost any respect I may have had for her. Which wasn't that much after seeing her doc about mental health and how the poor top athletes suffer so badly tbh.

If winning doesn’t matter as much as taking part why aren’t TW agitating to be in mens sport? Because winning DOES matter and the instances there have been find mediocre male athletes winning gold medals when they switch to the women’s category. It’s only women who are meant to clap politely as a male with huge physical advantage takes their medals from them which they have spent years training for.

That is such a prime example of double think. How can people sit round a table and seriously discuss that as an issue without their heads falling off?

I think this depends on the sport - and I'm talking specifically about a team contact sport. The competition is better in single sex for me, because I can be competitive in a way I can't against men due to their physicality. I play the mixed-sex version purely because it's fun and social and not serious.