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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dd ran away to be with trans lover and refuses to return

990 replies

Moomoola · 11/01/2023 08:15

Hi, I was posting in the teens section and got some good ad vice and a suggestion that I post here.
here’s a link to that thread www.mumsnet.com/talk/teenagers/4699011-sil-cancelled-visit-as-our-dd-wants-to-be-a-man?page=1
im using ‘dd’and ‘she’ to keep things simple.
basically dd at 15 decided she was trans and I took her to get some boys clothes and didn’t pay it enough attention. To my naive mind it’s not (or wasn’t ) an issue.
Shes now 17 and started to date a girl ( x) who is 17, who’s parents paid for male hormones since 15. That was some concern as obv. X will have been through a lot. Dd mentioned that x has some mental struggles, the mum hides vodka. Dd is pretty naive, has had a few challenges and can be gullible.
in the last 3 months dd was clearly struggling.
just befor Xmas I made her a cuppa and she had vanished. We tracked her down to x house which she refused to leave. It was ibvioly coordinated as there was a lot of phone alerts and the dad had obviously come to collect her.
I asked the mum to send her back as it was Xmas day and we were concerned. I get a text back from dd saying the mum doesn’t want to be involved and why did I deadname her.
The mum obviously didn’t need to show the text to dd. There are other red flags that the mum is stirring. We got texts from dd saying we are abusive transphobes. If we try and talk rationally that’s conversion therapy. We are concerned that dd is being encouraged to write these. The grammar is sometimes too good to be dds. Any ‘friendly’ texts seem to be late at night. Though I may be overthinking that.
live managed to see dd twice so at least we are talking, but it’s as if dd is hardening herself from us. She has decided to live with x and her mum and is in love and considering top surgery as she has dysmorphia. At least she is still going to school.
we registered it with the police who said this is happening a lot and it’s a pattern.
we are not concerned about the trans thing as such, though obviously that’s part of it, we are very concerned that since dating x, a seemingly happy dd got increasingly depressed and convinced we were transphobic to the point that she had to run to xs house where she feels supported, and we feel she is being love bombed, isolated from us and coerced into thinking she also needs hormones etc.
we are getting nowhere. I seem to be living in a dystopian world where everyone has fake smiles and suggests we call her by her new name and everything will be marvellous.
live contacted Bayswater group, and I’m posting here as suggested by a pp in case anyone can suggest anything else I can do. For dd but also Dh and ds. Dh obviously distraught the more he reads and ds is spending more and more time alone on his phone.
Many thanks.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
38
RedToothBrush · 27/01/2023 23:07

If your daughter wants her passport she needs to be a big girl and see her mummy and deal with like an adult rather than running off to the teacher accusing you of god knows what.

The teacher is exposing themselves to all sort her by over stepping. And you should, quite rightly, be asking wtf is going on with that level of over familiarity

RedToothBrush · 27/01/2023 23:04

Delphinium20 · 27/01/2023 19:42

I called dd who seemed happy to chat and told me the teacher had called, and to my utter suprise asked if she could meet me with the teacher as she is a bit stressed at seeing me.
wtaf?

I wouldn't trust that teacher. If she wants the passport, she can come to the house and talk with you.

Inappropriate.

Why is the teacher proposing meeting a parent but more importantly a child outside school.

That's overstepping boundaries and reason to be raising safeguarding concerns about over familiarity between teacher and student.

That smells really off to me.

Anactor · 27/01/2023 21:40

The teacher is offering to meet you and DD outside school?

No. That’s really unprofessional. It should be a meeting inside school with the Deputy/Head aware of it.

ScrollingLeaves · 27/01/2023 21:21

That was wrong of the teacher.

Perhaps tell her her passport is at home, and no one will shout at her if and when she wants to get it.

MichelleScarn · 27/01/2023 20:20

I absolutely wouldn't trust that teacher. Have an acquaintance who is a teacher and proudly stated at an event was at how she was a 'secret keeper' or some other bilge term for pupils re supporting trans identities and hiding this from parents and supporting them in their journey....another time and place it would scream safe guarding.. not so in Sturgeons Scotland.

KatMcBundleFace · 27/01/2023 19:56

Completely inappropriate of the teacher. I would be arranging a meeting with the head.

Delphinium20 · 27/01/2023 19:43

This is the escalation process to pull away from you and I'm so sorry it's happening

Delphinium20 · 27/01/2023 19:42

I called dd who seemed happy to chat and told me the teacher had called, and to my utter suprise asked if she could meet me with the teacher as she is a bit stressed at seeing me.
wtaf?

I wouldn't trust that teacher. If she wants the passport, she can come to the house and talk with you.

Moomoola · 27/01/2023 16:46

We are in the uk, we are in Scotland. Great!

OP posts:
Moomoola · 27/01/2023 16:45

Thank you redtoothbrush I feel for your family and you that’s so sad.
none of it is easy or fair that’s true.

unfortunately I need more advice! The school called and told me they’d talked to dd. The teacher said she was happy to go for a coffee with dd and I if dd wanted it.
dd wants her passport to fly to a gig in the uk that I’d even helped her arrange. The teacher said I could give it to her.
I called dd who seemed happy to chat and told me the teacher had called, and to my utter suprise asked if she could meet me with the teacher as she is a bit stressed at seeing me.
wtaf?
what’s going on? When I have met her she’s been fine and I’ve been friendly and helpful, told her we love and will support.
Dh thinks she is being persueded we will shout ( this happened before). He is wondering if by having a mediator we are somehow entering a pathway where she and x can say she needs accommodation as we are so horrible.
dd said CAHMS will offer her anything like help with housing and college.
her friend has got a nice flat after her parents were apparently stressed and bullying.

OP posts:
beastlyslumber · 27/01/2023 10:59

Great post @RedToothBrush Sorry about your brother.

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2023 23:25

Moomoola · 26/01/2023 08:37

Thank you so much everyone. Thank you redtoothbrush and cloglady for taking the time to write such long well considered replies, and thank you everyone for writing caring sense.
I’m writing a reply. What I want to say is ‘wtf, cheeky mare, after all you are putting us through’ but I will obviously phrase it better and more lovingly!
Dh is really hurt and bewildered. I’m calling ‘time’ on the discussion s at night, but am woken with his worries. It’s exhausting.
im now terrified of losing son, and realised I am beginning to get depressed.
I need to sort something nice for half term. Dh never wants to think about holidays, he’s always too busy.
I shall start another thread called any ideas a 15 yr old boy and his mum can do!

The stuff about the rudeness is dead interesting... For my brother it certainly was a reason to 'legitimately' be a total arse to the whole family and DH.

I would echo the stuff about not being a doormat to it. It did my mum no good. Don't go there. Make a point of saying you don't speak to me like that whilst demanding things. If she wants respect she needs to give it. You don't lose anything if she's already behaving like this towards you, except your self respect.

In terms of your son. Be there for him. Don't sacrifice him to please your daughter.

I was about 30 when it happened in our family. It screwed my head up - identity formation isn't just an individual thing. It's a group thing too - with the primary group in your life being your family. Your son's identity is as the son and younger brother of a sister. His identity formed growing up having a sister - that never changes so don't ask him to do mental somersaults over it. For me, I dread when people make polite conversation saying 'do you have any brothers and sisters?' Its an innocent question but for me it's no loaded. What people are actually trying to do when they ask the question is to relate to you - they are asking 'are you like me?' in terms of their own family identity. Or having children they are trying to relate their children to their family - they are saying stuff like 'oh God it's crap having an older girl and younger boy, I was X in the dynamic when I was a child'. But for me it's no longer an easy question to answer - particularly in polite company. I face a choice of being honest and trying to explain it (often not knowing their beliefs or politics on the subject) or lying feeling it acutely - it makes it hard to make that connection. So I feel lost and like my reality isn't valid / acceptable. It's a minefield. And I do think it's important, because his identity - individual and as a unit, matters. He was your son and all of a sudden he's almost got competition with another 'son'. Not to mention how screwed up seeing my brother as a woman felt. It was like looking in some kind of twisted mirror. It didn't do my self asteem a lot of good. I wondered if that's what I looked like to others. I can't explain it - it mattered to me.

Having my mum side with my brother and justify behaviour which under any other circumstances was appalling was awful. It alienated me. Mainly because the worst attacks were about DH being transphobic (DH didn't even know my brother was trans at this point, so to say it was an unfair accusation is putting it mildly!). My mum said it was fine for DH to be treated appallingly. She ended up losing me. We are just about on speaking terms again at this stage.

And my mum hasn't got much of a relationship left with my brother for it.

I think that's one of the worst things - you can't 'save' your daughter. You can focus on the relationship you have that's still not in tatters. So do that. Your daughter has to largely figure this out herself. She needs to know you are loved and you care but can't make everything about her and this because you will lose a lot more and its unlikely to alter her mind - because that's not how cults work. You can't free someone from a cult by joining it yourself. You can only help them realise the problem by encouraging them to ask the questions of themselves.

Look after yourself. And your family. You count too. And there's no guilt and shame in recognising your own needs or those of other members of the family. Your daughter will either come around or she won't. Ultimately she has the right to make terrible decisions. As much as that sucks. You can still be there but she's 18, so you can only do so much. As she keeps pointing out herself. That's what 18 year olds do - reject their parents to assert themselves and find their own identity. It's rare that you find it age 18 though and that's what you need to keep in your head.

Just position yourself to be the to pick up the pieces should she need it.

None of this is easy or fair. On anyone.

ScrollingLeaves · 26/01/2023 09:01

That half term break is such a good idea

Moomoola · 26/01/2023 08:37

Thank you so much everyone. Thank you redtoothbrush and cloglady for taking the time to write such long well considered replies, and thank you everyone for writing caring sense.
I’m writing a reply. What I want to say is ‘wtf, cheeky mare, after all you are putting us through’ but I will obviously phrase it better and more lovingly!
Dh is really hurt and bewildered. I’m calling ‘time’ on the discussion s at night, but am woken with his worries. It’s exhausting.
im now terrified of losing son, and realised I am beginning to get depressed.
I need to sort something nice for half term. Dh never wants to think about holidays, he’s always too busy.
I shall start another thread called any ideas a 15 yr old boy and his mum can do!

OP posts:
TheClogLady · 25/01/2023 19:57

You’d probably benefit from talking to other mums/families in similar situations - once you see the enormous variation in families facing similar situations right now it will be much harder to blame yourself.

It’s a trixy ideology and it sneaks in and drives a wedge - most people aren’t aware until it comes to their own doorstep (and even those of us who knew about it have found it difficult to stop it getting a foothold).

I can recommend a good Facebook group if you think it will be helpful?

TheClogLady · 25/01/2023 19:46

I agree with Delph

I think perhaps I would ignore the (rude!) request to deliver to school and say something like ‘your passport and NI number are in an envelope on the dining table ready for you to collect. I’m working on my own boundaries at the moment (inspired by you!) so do text to check it’s a convenient time for me before you set off’ Then add something chatty about school/her brother/something you have in common even if it’s just a TV programme?

Delphinium20 · 25/01/2023 17:28

Today I get a terse, ' can you drop my passport and ni number At school'

I would encourage you to firmly, without anger, tell her that she is asking a favor if you and if she wants this, she can come to the house and talk politely with the family. Don't be her doormat. Make sure to set boundaries where she needs to treat you, your DH and DS with respect.

My friend's teen daughter who has a new identity is so unbelievably rude to her mom that even my DD called her on it, "like your mom is so nice. Why are you so mean to her?" I think this is a feature of the group.

She is testing her new antisocial behavior (cause that's a lot what this gender identity is) and it's okay to call out its rudeness and entitlement. Again, I'd advise calmly, but she should know she's treating you with disrespect.

If you demand others respect you, she will see she should respect herself as well. You are her mother and daughters see themselves in their mothers whether they like it or not. Standing up for yourself could mean she stands up for herself against this self-harming belief. Good luck. You're not the only mom going through this.

Moomoola · 25/01/2023 16:41

Thanks everyone. I will have a read and catch up to ight.
School had a chat and said she's going in to school and will fit job in around school Yadda Yadda. Well done teachers! She also said she's grateful for the space since she said basically bugger off on Saturday.oThat was only because I couldn't Think what to say.but DH write a lovely text to her about how much she is loved and part of the family.
Today I get a terse, ' can you drop my passport and ni number At school'
No how are you, nothing chatty. It's so unlike her. She is really being persuaded to cut us off. Feel so impotent.
I'm so tempted to call and tell her how hurtful and unnecessary this is and why is she doing it. How do I reply? And why should I drive 30 mins each way to drop her stuff off after she's been so rude to us?
I even encouraged her to go away for a weekend with X. And helped book the tickets ffs. I took her to buy boys clothes. I shared my own shady past as a way of saying, ' no judgement going on here' and we agreed to chat ...and then she snuck off.
How do I combat this awful relentless cutting off of us? X must be rubbing her hands with glee.
I can't even phone the mum and say how's my daughter getting on with you both?
Sorry. Sitting in Tesco carpark, not the best place to be. Going over all the stuff we should have done differently. Trying not to let this destroy our relationship with D's. And each other.
This will affect D's how do I manage it? I don't want him to become a replacement but I want him to know he's loved
I just wanted a big family with noisy Sunday lunches and instead I feel so isolated and alone and rubbish.
Sorry. Really hit me after that text.

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 24/01/2023 12:09

OP this article was posted on another thread about teenage girls and trans. It does not have a solution to your dilemma, but is very interesting.

archive.ph/Lawwa

RedToothBrush · 24/01/2023 12:02

Just reading this and trying to catch up / process. Will try and think of a few things about this because I've seen this from a weird angle.

In terms of it being a cult, if that's what's going on, the leaving your job and trying to get involved isn't likely to help - if anything it will be a disaster. The problem with cults is they have an entrenchment issue - it's them and us so the more you push the more it entrenches.

The other thing is she is 18. That means joining the pta is good for a year at most and actually when people join a cult they are usually in it for several years. And it's like drugs and alcohol - the only person who can say no is the person at the centre of this and the only way they usually do that is by having an epiphany through a series of events (usually a crisis) or because they have significant life changes that make them question things. The one way to counter a cult isn't by saying no, it's by encouraging questions to niggle under the skin. The cognitive dissonance stuff to be picked at slowly - not in a barrage but on the terms of the person involved - it's about picking moments.

The one good thing with your daughter being 18 is that there's going to be some significant life changes going on in the next year or two. The instability is the cause of all this no doubt, but it's also probably the best thing in terms of her suddenly dropping out of the cult too.

Seriously though, quitting your job is a kneejerk reaction to something that's not going to get fixed anytime soon and you need to start seeing things this way

At some point I think you need to have a conversation about medicalisation and complications - I'd take the line about 'informed choice' and making sure she is - that's stuff like comordibities, long term consequences, lose of sexual function, infertility etc etc. And stressing that nothing is reversible as much as it's being pushed. You'd be better spending time preparing for this. You would need to stress it's her choice but you want her to make the right one. And actually make the point about medical supervision and not getting drugs off other people etc etc in case that's happening. Centre her heath and well being. Everything else if peripheral to that in the sense it's less of a priority.

I may post again later, but you need to understand the dynamics going forward. There is a halfway house between positive affirmation and outright rejection. That's the one you need to tred. I would be stressing stuff like she also needs to give you time to come to terms with things and to offer you reassurance (perhaps play we are the old gits, educate us card - to open up a narrative where you can act stupid and ask questions).

Given I no longer speak to my brother (not have the remotest desire to), I'm not necessarily an expert here (more to do with having a shit relationship with him to begin with). My mother's affirmative approach doesn't seem to have helped at all - I don't think my brother speaks to my mum much nor my dad at all these days. I think he was much further sucked in, very early on and I was always determined to reject us (one of the things he told us early on was that it wasn't uncommon to reject family - even if they were understanding - because it was too much of a reminder of their former selves etc so I don't think we could have done much differently to have a different outcome). He was in his mid to late twenties at this point and I think that's slightly different especially as he was male - he'd almost 'set' his identity by this point and clearly wanted to take it out on me from the very beginning.

So I think a lot rests on the state of your underlying relationship and whether she values you too. Don't take an initial rejection as a bad sign though. It might be the oppose - my brother was always desperate for my mother's approval alongside total rejection of me (sibling rivalry / attention seeking were very much part of the dynamic in my family hence how a lot of it panned out. Ironically my mothers pandering - which drives me insane when she does it to me - is liable to have gone off the scale and pushed him away eventually anyway!)

'Everything in moderation' is the key phrase I think that strikes me throughout. Don't push, play the long game, a game where you focus on encouraging her to ask questions herself by carefully wording things rather than being more confrontational and trying to plant ideas more directly. That's what chips away at cultlike thinking.

Charging in like a bull in a china shop and quitting job, isn't going to work. You have to respect her decision making (cos she has a right to make terrible decisions) but also stress you care and are worried.

TheClogLady · 24/01/2023 10:03

Bit more (sorry!) our previous discussions re: the cult-like dynamics of some some of this stuff are spread out in various threads (as Jellycats rightly points out above, it’s been a touchy subject and certain necessary words have prompted mass deletions) probably the most concentrated group of posts is mid way through this thread (link should take you to a relevant bit):

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4689915-so-thats-why-susie-green-left?page=17

I’m paging @Redtoothbrush because she’s been reading a lot of relevant sources and is really insightful about interpersonal dynamics in general.

Hope you don’t mind the tag, Red - feel free to ignore if you have no time or energy right now!

TheClogLady · 24/01/2023 09:45

Nicola Benyahiya’s org:

familiesforlife.org.uk/what-we-do

And I believe this is the chap who was helping Nicola with what to say when her son made sporadic contact:

girds.org/staff/daniel-koehler

His work is motivated by counter terrorism and he’s looked into various forms of radicalisation (from Right Wing to Islamist) so he’s observed common patterns in both the radicalisation process and in those who are vulnerable to it).

Your current situation puts me in mind of Scientology and how those of us outside of it are characterised as ‘suppressive persons’.

Will see if I can find some potentially relevant strategies in ex Scientology writing in the next few days but don’t want to flood you with too many links at once!

💐

TheClogLady · 24/01/2023 09:31

Obviously the situation is completely different but I do believe there are similarities in how the separation between sensitive, vulnerable adolescent and loving parent is leveraged and widenedZ

m.youtube.com/watch?v=f5zrAkj5opM

The mum, Nicola, is actually a counsellor. I wonder if she’s had anyone contact her re: gender related issues?

www.mothersforlife.org/en/keyparents/nicola-benyahiha

www.counselling-directory.org.uk/counsellors/nicola-benyahia

Jellycats4life · 24/01/2023 09:25

I agree that your husband seems to be fixated on you leaving your job because he’s desperate and wants to feel like you are doing your utmost to get DD back.

But as people have been saying, you need to play the long game here. She has been groomed into a cult (and that’s a statement MNHQ would delete you for years ago, so we have made progress) and the way out isn’t easy or straightforward. She’s so deeply immersed in it right now, with her romantic relationship and the enabling mother.

Hopefully they will soon get tired of living in each other’s pockets and DD will want some freedom and space. The hardest thing will be admitting that she wants to come back to you. That’s why this advice is so good: Tell her she will always have space to be safe when she asks for it, that's what home means.

TheClogLady · 24/01/2023 09:22

I hate to heap more on your plate but I think it’s best I warn you - X might be supplying your DD with testosterone?

We’ve had some real issues in my DstepD’s friendship group with this, a couple of them
have online prescriptions via a dodgy UK GP who is currently suspended but operates an offshore business. Another managed to get a prescription via Superdrug’s online chatbot style GP using her older brother’s passport.

Testosterone is a controlled substance but it seems surprisingly easy for wily teenagers to get their hands on it, especially the topical gel form.

That your DD has said X is satisfied with their current appearance and no longer taking testosterone pings my radar (3 years of dealing with this but younger child somewhat easier situation) as if X continues to order the drug in the same way, X could be giving it away/selling it on.

I don’t mean for this to sound as sinister as it likely comes across in text, obviously as adults we can anticipate the long term issues with sharing a prescription drug, but teenagers are rubbish at impulse control and longterm thinking and teenage girls also tend to be tightly enmeshed with their closest friends, so physically sharing something significant is a normal part of their friendships (only normally it’s clothes or a tiny flat, not a performance enhancing steroid!)

Anyway, if X does turn out to be sharing testosterone with your DD there maybe some criminal liability there.

Perhaps concerns about potential for shared testosterone is something you could discuss with your school contact? Even just bedsharing with someone who uses topical testosterone can be dangerous (there is a famous case of a little boy starting precocious pubertal development from secondhand exposure to his dad’s perfectly legitimate TRT prescription).

I think I found the lady who lost her son to ISIS btw, will be back with some links…

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