Sex Equality and Equity Network - Gender crit network for civil servants.

Any lurkers here from MOD or any of its constituent parts?

@dandelionthistle I've chased yesterday and got this in response:
'Sorry for the delay we're still setting up our data process, but hope to get back to everyone soon. Your request has not been forgotten!'

So all seems fine

Keeping in my back pocket, even. So much for a single post!

Fully agree and also keeping in my back comment.

Couple of questions (unrelated to the quote above - just trying to restrict myself to a single post!) -

1. Have others heard back from SEEN re their request to join? I filled in the form on their website that first weekend (however long ago this thread was started) and haven't heard anything - is that normal, or is it worth me trying again now?

1. This thread seems to be attracting a lot of posts which don't follow the conversation, and which don't obviously relate to SEEN or the civil service - is there a reason for this?

Can I please ask for support to be reinstated on Twitter? I am suspended - which could be indefinite because they are very capricious. I am STranswidows. Thank you for any help you can give. Pl leave this post, mod. Thank you.

Talking about "howling down", can people who are on Twitter and know me please appeal to AtElonMusk and AtTwitterSupport to get me reinstated? I am and will always be AtSTranswidows (in the plural). Please translate into "Twitter" lingo. Thank you for your help!

Yes, maybe something like this from upthread (which I’m keeping in my back pocket for when the need arises, but would like others to use so I’m less outed 😏)

As civil servants, we need to act with impartiality, regardless of our personal beliefs. We also need to be aware that, just as those beliefs, widely held on this yammer thread, are protected under the Equality Act 2010, so are the beliefs that biological sex is binary and immutable, and that biological sex matters, including in the workplace.

We need to be cognisant that there is likely to be diversity of belief in our workplace, just as there is diversity of belief in the population we serve, and should be careful to avoid behaviour that may cross the line into bullying, harassment or discrimination against those whose beliefs are different to our own.

Check this out...
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4691979-kjk-to-stand-against-starmer?page=5&reply=122074270
😎

Is it possible for the person who was howled down to politely remind everyone who howled that a) GC opinions are recognised as being worthy of respect in a democratic society, b) the Forstater case has established that it's perfectly acceptable to express this view in the workplace and c) the howlers could be understood to be discriminating and, if they keep doing, harassing?

I don't think we should be legislating against every personality. If someone is being bullied and harrassed they don't have to have a protected characteristic for it to be resolved.

I agree treat everyone fairly and respectfully.

However when normal day-to-day interaction between colleagues is seen as transphobic, how on earth are we supposed to navigate an ever-changing landscape? In my office someone politely pointed out that there were differences between women and transwomen, nothing more than that, and got howled down. No debate is alive and well.

This is the greatest area of risk for Depts managing reasonable conversations.

And are the problems faced by the JLR case caused by the treatment of the non-binary person by their colleagues, which is bullying, rather than anything else?

However when normal day-to-day interaction between colleagues is seen as transphobic, how on earth are we supposed to navigate an ever-changing landscape? In my office someone politely pointed out that there were differences between women and transwomen, nothing more than that, and got howled down. No debate is alive and well.

But isn't the outcome mentioned above that non-binary people are covered by existing legislation in the Equality Act under the protected characteristic of gender reassignment? And why do male non-binary people have to use the ladies loos?

Thank you that makes more sense, but obviously there is confusion.
Yes gender fluid is difficult. Didn't the police get round this by issuing two ID cards to an officer?

I don't think we should be legislating against every personality. If someone is being bullied and harrassed they don't have to have a protected characteristic for it to be resolved.

She's now continuing her proselytizing at Citizens Advice Bureau:

www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/backlash-as-citizens-advice-tells-staff-to-wear-gender-pronoun-badges/ar-AA14RQHo

I think it has led to a culture where people think their right to express and present themselves however they want is more important than anyone else's discomfort about losing single sex facilities.

Interesting whose "whole self" is welcomed at work. Certainly not the "inconvenience" of women's bodies in all their biological activity ...

Going back a few years the permanent secretary of defra had a trans child, who she talked about a lot in her blog and chat with the chief stuff. There was a lot of emphasis throughout defra on being able to 'bring your whole self to work' and other stuff which at the time sounded very positive.
I think it has led to a culture where people think their right to express and present themselves however they want is more important than anyone else's discomfort about losing single sex facilities.

I don't see why there should be any need to legislate or make artangements for people being daft.

@FemaleAndLearning happy to be corrected, my understanding is an Employment Tribunal judgement is not legally binding. Employment Appeal Tribunal (EAT) judgements are legally binding and can only be overturned by a higher court. It is EATs that normally form case law and it’s why Maya Forstater’s EAT judgement is crucial. At some point it is likely the Jaguar Land Rover case will be tested at EAT or overtaken by legislative change.

From a CS HR perspective, I would expect a non-binary employee (like all employees) to be treated with dignity and respect and not be bullied etc. Providing one or more unisex toilets along with single sex female and male toilets is a relatively simple solution for both transgender and non-binary employees.

One aspect which is much harder to manage and legislate for is, what I would call gender fluid, where some days an employee presents as their biological sex and others as transgender with different names e.g. Steve and Sandra.

I was told by HR that the Jag/Landover case with the man who said he was non binary but actually presented as a 'woman' that this was 'case law' for those who think they have no sex AKA non binary. From memory the individual was terribly harassed, which was wrong, but not sure it was because of the non binary status more the transwoman status.
www.hrmagazine.co.uk/content/news/gender-fluid-and-non-binary-ruling-in-jaguar-land-rover-case-calls-for-a-rewrite-of-equality-policies#:~:text=In%20the%20case%20of%20Taylor,unfairly%20dismissed%20by%20her%20employer.

Yup, non-binary has no legal status or recognition at all. It has no place being used in government departments.

Section 7 of the 2010 Equality Act
7- Gender reassignment
(1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

(2)A reference to a transsexual person is a reference to a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.
(3)In relation to the protected characteristic of gender reassignment—
(a)a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a transsexual person;
(b)a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to transsexual persons.

Thats the end of section 7 - nothing about non-binary

Just filled in our annual staff survey. In the preamble to the diversity monitoring bit it correctly listed the Equality Act protected characteristics. But in the actual questions it asked for gender identity instead of sex. (And no free text box.)

It's all so depressing, from science-based organisations too.

What I really want is for one of these people complaining to stand up and state boldly that they don't think biological sex matters to people, and why. They should have the guts to stand up in front of all their colleagues and state sexism doesn't exist if they're going to fight a network dedicated to working on it.

But they won't do that because they'll be instantly shown up to anybody with a brain, much easier to stick with a dishonest "they're denying my right to exist!" dramatics

Thanks @Elephant2981.

Anyone can join the FSU. It's not a union in the normal sense.