Realised why I struggle with LGBTQIA+ discussions

I find the whole drag visual creepy. I am seeing more and more young women over made up - not sure if it’s in homage to drag or just ‘selfie ready’ slap.

There are several You Tube and other videos of drag performers who say very clearly that drag and the drag scene is highly sexualised and not for children. Here's just one of them:

But thanks to the BBC and Drag Race loads of children now think drag's just a bit of fun. It's not. It's deeply misogynistic and, as PPs have said, rooted in a gay male/ AGP sexuality. I have lesbian friends whose son, now in his early 20s, was an out gay lad at school and university, then got into the drag scene and is now saying he's trans and dressing as a woman — while having sex with men and denying he's gay. His mums are gender critical lesbians and devastated that he's denying his sexuality while presenting as a parody of a woman.

I'm not gay, but I think I understand a bit why you're uncomfortable. The LGBTQIA stuff you're mentioning seems hypersexualised gay male stuff.

IMO, drag is a gay man's thing: it's part of an older 'closeted' or underground gay male culture when being gay was pretty much illegal. It seems to me (and I spent a bit of my teens & early twenties surrounded by drag queens) that drag is/was a way for some gay men to express that "feminine man" part of themselves - a way to channel the camp and mock it but at the same time celebrate it - in the face of wider society's homophobia & compulsory heterosexuality.

But for lesbians, the issues around sexuality & the reception in wider society is quite different.

You've had some great responses OP, I've enjoyed reading them (I hadn't noticed it was an old thread).

Could @QueenHippolyta or someone else who knows, link to the stoicism thread, please? I've had a search and can't find it.

Just to reassure you that there are thousands of lesbians and gay men who don't attend Pride because they can't bear it. I used to attend Pride in London in the 80s and 90s, when to do so was a political act and we lived in fear of being beaten up. I find the current commercialism, and the way that the vast majority of people who attend are straight and they're to affirm to themselves that they're cool and progressive, repugnant. LGB people used to march in order to fight for their right to equality. Seeing Pride debased to a profit-driven, booze-sodden, arse-baring, glitter and unicorns tat fest grieves me greatly.

This is a bit of an old thread, but the replies are still interesting.

OP, you’ve received some great advice here. In addition: you say that you’re concerned that not liking drag shows and Pride marches could be viewed as “discriminatory”. You’re perfectly entitled to dislike something simply because you dislike it. You don’t need to justify your opinions to anyone. Attending Pride isn’t an obligation; not attending doesn’t mean you hate gay people 😵‍💫. Anyone who suggests this has a very simplistic way of reasoning and isn’t worth engaging with.

Why are you or anyone else being co-opted into this at your workplace? If workmates want to arrange to go to Pride among themselves, then great. But a work outing sounds bizarre, and as for the drag night idea, that can get in the sea.

This 👆
The + also includes furries and MAP persons... Aka pedophiles

For anyone wondering why a 9 year old would even be thinking about his sexuality, a lot of my friends that he knows well are gay/bi in same sex relationships. And DS is also very comfortably gnc, in a lot of his hobbies (like performing arts/dance), toys he'll play with, prefers having longer hair, etc. While not enjoying team sports, physical fighting etc. So it's probably something he has given a bit of thought to or maybe even been asked about by his peers.

Perhaps, but kids also get a lot of discussion of sexuality in school classroom settings. It's very common in the 9 to 12 range for them to want to categorize themselves this way.

@anonwith123
First; tell your daughter you love her and will always love her whomever she loves. That's really what she needs, assurance.

Second; she may be socially influenced to have a fashionable sexuality. She is only 11! Do not let her join the school LGBTQ society and restrict her internet access. No Tumblr etc sites where she gets influenced to proceed from identifying from gay to trans to harming her body with drugs and surgery.

Third; there is a stoicism thread here. I think your daughter and all young girls would benefit studying how to cultivate resilience and inner strength. So they can resist unhealthy peer pressure and social contagion.

I'm a lesbian. Avoid Pride and everything LGBTQ -related.

Hi op I think I’m actually quite similar to you. If it helps the pride marches I’ve seen are really nice, open and family friendly. All about love and not really sex focussed (although I do think sex positively is a good thing tbh). I can’t speak for drag.
I think the way you put it on here should be understandable to others.

Sacred caste rather than sacred cow?

But yes, observe the Equality Act, treat everyone with basic courtesy and you're good.

Your question - exactly. Why is this being discussed at work?

Funnily enough my 9yo recently told me that he's straight as he has crushes on girls. I said that while he probably is because the vast majority of people are, the type of attraction that adults feel for each other isn't the same as crushes that kids have. That who we are attracted to as adults can change throughout our lives too, and that he shouldn't worry about it now. But also, while he probably is straight but that if he ever feels in the future like he isn't, that he should never worry about my reaction because it won't ever change how I feel about him.

For anyone wondering why a 9 year old would even be thinking about his sexuality, a lot of my friends that he knows well are gay/bi in same sex relationships. And DS is also very comfortably gnc, in a lot of his hobbies (like performing arts/dance), toys he'll play with, prefers having longer hair, etc. While not enjoying team sports, physical fighting etc. So it's probably something he has given a bit of thought to or maybe even been asked about by his peers.

Another way of thinking about it that might help you, OP. You mentioned different networks at your work and that you were against discrimination.

Following on from Autumn's point, "LGBTQIA+" in itself isn't a protected characteristic under the Equality Act.

"Sexual orientation" is (the "LGB").

"Gender reassignment" is (the T, although it's as clear as mud).

But the kink and hypersexualised stuff, which as far as any of us can tell, seems to be that nebulous Q, isn't protected.

Sexual orientation (homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual) is a protected characteristic but sexuality more broadly isn't. Not wanting to support or participate in hypersexualised activities is not discriminatory (in the way you mean it). Don't feel bad if it makes you uncomfortable.

We used to pass out buttons with all the sexuality flags where I used to work. Almost all the 11 year year old girls decided they were lesbians, pansexual, or asexual. If that reflected what they do as adults we are in for a population crash.

The thing that always strikes me about things like these plans to visit Pride is that they can put many people in a workplace in a very difficult position.

One example that happened in the place I was working last year - we were having to do unconscious bias training. The trainer was talking about gender and pronouns, and mentioned that as someone who had been raise Catholic she really had to try and undo some of her upbringing and biases around this issue.

It did not seem to occur to her that there could be employees who were observant Catholics, who have a protected right to their own beliefs and opinions about, well - everything. And while it might be totally appropriate to expect them to keep those private when dealing with clients at work, they should not have to be subjected to being told they should rethink their religious beliefs by their employer.

Similarly, I went to university with a fellow who is similarly an observant Catholic, in a professional position where it really has no relevance to what he does, but where there was pressure every year for the people in the workplace to march in the Pride parade. He began to find this intrusive and because some people were aware of his religious membership they looked askance at the fact that he never did join them in the parade. He eventually left that workplace.

The places we work need to be able to accommodate all kinds of people who think differently and believe different things and live different lives, and really only in rare instances should they expect their employees to share the same belief system. Businesses have no special insight into ethical or social issues compared to individuals. And they need to stop trying to tell employees what to think.

I'm not comfortable with the now apparently accepted wisdom that we should encourage children to focus on, express and explore sexuality.

Obviously an 11year old is going to know who they are attracted to, and they will want to tell you about this, particularly if they are aware they are same sex attracted. But I think my response would be the same as with my heterosexual children telling me who they fancy: oh really? That's nice. Act well. But remember sex is for adults.

I'd have a chat about gay people we know, answer questions about the future but make it clear anything about sex is for the future.

I wouldn't, gay or straight, start sharing sexual images they may like with them. Or taking them to sexually provocative events.

I'd discourage them from discussing widely about their sexual orientations. Because they are children. And sex is for adults.
And if they had questions or worries they should come to me.

I know before they became sexually active they'd be thinking a lot about sex but I'd encourage that to be private, and only shared with very trusted friends.
I wouldn't think I would need to be involved in them exploring this!

I wouldn't widely share this information either. Why would I tell people about my child's developing sexuality?

They'd just need to know: being gay is fine with us, we love you and hope you'll have happy and fulfilling relationships as an adult. And we look forward to meeting your partners when you're a young adult. (But still then we don't need to know about your sex life!)

I'm trying to explore my thoughts on this as a teacher said to me last week: we had 4 children in year 5 come out as gay last term.

And I just keep returning to the thought: why are we discussing openly children's sexuality.

Was this the starting of the blurring of the lines: when we all became comfortable with the idea of publically discussing and supporting children's sexuality.

I'm not gay, my children aren't gay, so I appreciate I may be missing something I don't understand. But all the discussing of children's sexuality, as a public concept, rather than just as a private development into adulthood makes me uncomfortable.

What does this have to do with work?

treat everyone the same and follow the law. Why is there one sacred cow?

They are infringing on your right to express your sexuality as a straight person who isn’t interested in other people’s bits and pieces.

I don’t actually think this is about being ‘kind ‘ to sexual minorities ; it’s about men ( mainly) pushing other people’s ( mainly women) boundaries, either to embarrass them or to recruit them. It’s been going on forever : it’s in Dickens and in Jacobean drama for example. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was going on the caves.

when I was working, some of men used to try and show the women porn (pretty mild by todays standards) under the guise of being tolerant and open minded. One of my fellow female executives put a stop to that by throwing up over one of the blokes showing it. She didn’t care for oral sex. Obviously.

Tbf, I doubt your averagely hedonistic gay man WANTS the straights turning up to ruin the fun. They have their own world of bath houses and rubber men and jockstraps and they don’t want ANY women there, straight, bi or lesbian (except maybe Kylie 😉).

it’s the Q and that mysterious + on the end of the letters who want to create a shocking spectacle, who want to ‘queer’ social norms and who want an unsuspecting public to witness elderly men dressed as toddler girls in ankle socks and petticoats and for innocent kids to pet leather ‘dogs’ and bdsm ‘ponies’.

Doesn't sit right with me either, OP.

Male gay sexuality is very different from the IKEA home-loving lesbians, just read the Cottaging thread. Frankly I don't want to be included with the G and most lesbians don't...