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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Help fact-check this letter to Liz Truss from 7000+ women

85 replies

testing987654321 · 19/09/2020 08:54

This letter has been signed by many women, of all walks of life. I think it's factually wrong in many places, anyone else willing to point out errors?

liztrussopenletter.wordpress.com/?fbclid=IwAR1lLPyNAtAyxI7iJYT6ULNGduWhuaThDncWLwmNDBBpva6_PM2cwjgso-4

OP posts:
Datun · 19/09/2020 12:42

@Tootsweets23

If you click through to the google doc *@Datun* they have split it out by sector. There are some medical professionals and scientists (in what, not sure), and a handful of medical students/academics but very very few compared to the rest.

I don't think they realised what they were doing but they've kindly compiled a list showing the size of the gender circus industry and the sheer number of people who are dependent on keeping the gravy train going. And this is only the women (well, self IDed women anyway). There are all the men too.

Very illuminating, thanks so much letter writer, you've done a great service in showing your hand.... the law of unintended consequences and all that.

Thank you. I did think it was incredibly telling and odd. However, the fact that it's still very few scientists who have signed it, is just as revealing, really.

And YY to the previous poster who has wondered where on earth these signatories have been for the past year. Since so much of what is written in the letter has been reported on and refuted publicly.

Airily waving away concerns over drugs which the NHS themselves say they have no evidential studies on just looks like juvenile and alarmingly irresponsible.

Miriel · 19/09/2020 12:36

I had a look at the relevant sector and two women I know personally have signed this, including someone who was a good friend at university. She definitely knew what a woman was back then. That's depressing.

testing987654321 · 19/09/2020 12:23

I thought it was more recent, it seems to have been circulating since May.

OP posts:
Thelnebriati · 19/09/2020 12:22

Describing the need for single sex spaces and services as 'bigotry' shows you don't understand safeguarding, trauma or PTSD.
Its no different from the arguments conservative men use to control and shame women.

Tootsweets23 · 19/09/2020 12:18

If you click through to the google doc @Datun they have split it out by sector. There are some medical professionals and scientists (in what, not sure), and a handful of medical students/academics but very very few compared to the rest.

I don't think they realised what they were doing but they've kindly compiled a list showing the size of the gender circus industry and the sheer number of people who are dependent on keeping the gravy train going. And this is only the women (well, self IDed women anyway). There are all the men too.

Very illuminating, thanks so much letter writer, you've done a great service in showing your hand.... the law of unintended consequences and all that.

TheFleegleHasLanded · 19/09/2020 12:07

Anyway, over 7000 of us signed a different kind of letter....

twitter.com/WomenUnitingUK/status/1272920955623333888?s=20

Datun · 19/09/2020 11:58

Am I reading it correctly, apart from a short list they picked out, including call workers and waiters, is every single other person on the list in the arts? No scientists, doctors, healthcare professionals? None?

And yes, I don't think it's a new letter. But new people are reading it, so refutations are necessary.

The government seem well aware of the gaming of the results of the public consultation though, so I don't think Liz Truss will give it a second glance.

I can't help wondering if it's just a useful list of people to ignore.

Tootsweets23 · 19/09/2020 11:39

Well exactly @rabbitwoman. I think that's why the list is overwhelmingly the dafties (actors, marketers, publishers etc) and vested interests. No one with any awareness of the situation (even if they still are supportive of changing the GRA etc) would sign something so out of date and inaccurate.

TheFleegleHasLanded · 19/09/2020 11:39

Is this a new letter? Because I’m sure it a few months old at least.

OldCrone · 19/09/2020 11:24

Well actually, Ireland (which is so often cited) does have exemptions for prisons as far as I understand, so even they know who is actually male and female.

The exemptions don't seem to be working very well in that case.

A sex offender who is currently undergoing a male to female transition has been given a protection detail after being remanded to the Dochas Centre Women's prison in Dublin.

The prisoner was remanded in the women's prison in Mountjoy on Monday after being convicted of 10 counts of sexual assault and one count of cruelty against a child

www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/sex-offender-undergoing-male-female-16623261

More about how the law in Ireland was passed without considering that this would be the result.

www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/male-bodied-transgender-inmate-housed-with-women-prisoners/

rabbitwoman · 19/09/2020 11:19

What really leaps out to me about this letter is how out of date it is....

These points may have been relavent a year, 18 months ago. But anyone engaged in the debate knows that they no longer hold water; it would be a LOGICAL, LEGITIMATE point to say that the impact on women's services in countries such as Canada have not yet been fairly assessed ; it would be a GOOD POINT to say that Yaniv et al do not represent the transgender community so it would be unfair to base new laws on their activities - but yo say THERE ARE NO PROBLEMS is literally gaslighting, isn't it?

It is like the last year didn't happen?

Who wrote ti's letter!?

OldCrone · 19/09/2020 11:13

A handful of trans teenagers each year are given puberty blockers, a safe treatment available to trans teens on the NHS since 1989. Multiple scientific studies show that puberty blockers are a life-saving treatment for trans teenagers who want them.

Safe? According to the NHS, side effects can be serious, and the long-term effects are unknown.

Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria.

Although the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) advises this is a physically reversible treatment if stopped, it is not known what the psychological effects may be.

It's also not known whether hormone blockers affect the development of the teenage brain or children's bones. Side effects may also include hot flushes, fatigue and mood alterations.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/

Kit19 · 19/09/2020 11:10

AFAIK no country that had introduced a version of self ID has followed it up with any kind of research to identify if it has caused problems

Absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence

SoManyActivities · 19/09/2020 11:08

I have had a go at unpicking some of the letter:

... transphobic hate groups and organisations such as Woman’s Place UK, Transgender Trend and the LGB Alliance.

Anyone claiming these groups are 'hate groups' are going to need receipts to prove it. What exactly have they said that is 'hate speech'? 'Transphobic hate group' sounds very emotive and dramatic, but where is the proof?

Transphobic groups have argued that to protect women’s single-sex spaces, trans women must be barred from entering them.

If transwomen use them then by definition they are not single sex spaces anymore are they, so it's not exactly a ridiculous argument? Also, a definition of 'transwomen' would be needed here? Are we talking about full on GRS and everything else that goes with that, or are we talking about 'any male who identifies as female'? It's a pretty important point.

They campaign against reforming the Gender Recognition Act, and claim that simplifying the process by which trans people update the gender marker on their birth certificate will result in a rise in sexual assaults against women. This is despite the fact that several countries have implemented similar reforms to their gender recognition laws without any negative impact to cis women whatsoever.

Well actually, Ireland (which is so often cited) does have exemptions for prisons as far as I understand, so even they know who is actually male and female.

These transphobic groups also argue against any gender-affirming healthcare for trans under-18’s and mislead the public into thinking that under 18’s are being given gender reassignment surgery on the NHS. They are not. A handful of trans teenagers each year are given puberty blockers, a safe treatment available to trans teens on the NHS since 1989. Multiple scientific studies show that puberty blockers are a life-saving treatment for trans teenagers who want them.

OK, this is the most worrying part. I can't find any information for when puberty blockers started being used on gender dysphoric kids, but I found that Lupron, which I believe is the hormone blocker used, was licenced for use in 1989, for prostate cancer. And then in 1993 for treating precocious puberty. It has never been licenced or tested for use to actually stop a normally developing puberty, its use for this is off label. Also, the NHS has recently reviewed its information about puberty blockers to say that their effects are not known and they are not necessarily reversible. Furthermore studies show that almost all children who start on puberty blockers later go on to cross sex hormones which are definitely more permanent. Also worth pointing out that Susie Green, who has signed this letter and therefore obviously thinks the idea of under 18s getting surgery is ludicrous, took her son to Thailand for surgery for his 16th birthday.

Trans men, women and non-binary people young and old have always lived among us. They have used the single-sex spaces that align with their gender identity this entire time.

It is important to say that if this has happened, this is because women have allowed this as a courtesy, not because of equality law. Under the current EA, women are entitled to single sex spaces. Sex is a protected characteristic in the EA. So is 'gender reassignment' but there is no definition of what this means and people seem to be applying it very loosely. Also there are single sex exemptions that exempt people even with a GRC. Stonewall is currently campaigning for these exemptions to be abolished. My knowledge on the legal stuff isn't as good as some on here, so someone else might be able to come along and further clarify?

The fact that you chose to make this a priority during the biggest crisis the world has faced in decades is even more disturbing. During lockdown, hundreds of women have been killed by abusive partners. Ethnic minorities are four times more likely to die from COVID-19. Surely these issues are more urgent?

Unnecessary deflection and manipulation. You could say this about any single issue.

I hope some of that is helpful?

Theterrible42s · 19/09/2020 11:05

I haven't got anything helpful to add, other than - Siobhan Fahey??! As in ex- Bananarama and Shakespeare's Sister? That was a slap in the face.

OldCrone · 19/09/2020 11:05

several countries have implemented similar reforms to their gender recognition laws without any negative impact to cis women whatsoever.

Here are a couple of threads about things that have never happened and will never happen.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3309758-This-never-happens-male-offenders-in-female-prisons

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

ArabellaScott · 19/09/2020 11:03

Also noting that some of these signatories consist of a single initial.

JaneAustenWouldHateThis · 19/09/2020 11:03

this man is a woman.

What a very daft sentence!

JaneAustenWouldHateThis · 19/09/2020 11:01

If someone calls any group a "hate" group then I think they really ought to quote some examples of the hateful things they're supposed to have said.

That never happens does it?

ArabellaScott · 19/09/2020 11:01

'We urge you to speak to trans youth, to seek out evidence and use facts, and to reconsider sharing talking points with groups that have been widely condemned as transphobic hate groups.'

I urge this too. But I suspect if anyone actually does that the signatories won't be happy.

All of these women, whoever they are and whereever they live, are perfectly entitled to write to Liz Truss with their views, however vague and badly phrased.

The only point I take issue with is classing the groups mentioned as 'hate groups'. I'd say that was libellous, actionable and a very serious accusation.

OldCrone · 19/09/2020 11:00

They seem a bit confused. They start off by saying that they are in favour of reform of the GRA.

Transphobic groups have argued that to protect women’s single-sex spaces, trans women must be barred from entering them. They campaign against reforming the Gender Recognition Act, and claim that simplifying the process by which trans people update the gender marker on their birth certificate will result in a rise in sexual assaults against women.

But they go on to say that GRA reform shouldn't be a priority now because of Covid.

The fact that you chose to make this a priority during the biggest crisis the world has faced in decades is even more disturbing. During lockdown, hundreds of women have been killed by abusive partners. Ethnic minorities are four times more likely to die from COVID-19. Surely these issues are more urgent?

So do they want reform or don't they? Or do they want reform of the GRA to make it possible for a man to be legally recognised as female on his word alone, but they don't want any reform which will offer more protection for women, rather than less.

Can someone explain to me why any women would be arguing for this?

TweeBree · 19/09/2020 10:59

"Hi, we're a bunch of privileged white women who will never have to share our safe spaces with men, so we're totally fine with giving away the rights of all women!! HOW COOL ARE WE??!"

andyoldlabour · 19/09/2020 10:56

I don't know one person in real life who refers to themselves as "cisgender".

Datun · 19/09/2020 10:54

@testing987654321

Thanks Datun, those links are great.
There have been a lot of threads on here about the entire report, the people contributing, and Maria Millers subsequent attitude.

Searching on Maria Miller in a thread title brings them all up.

A particularly enlightening episode was where she was interviewed by Janice Turner and called it a 'stitch up'.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2993425-Maria-Miller-interviewed-by-Janice-Turner-full-text

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2563673-Maria-Miller-and-minority-feminists

testing987654321 · 19/09/2020 10:53

the UK is full of TW & TM who it seems pass so brilliantly that we’ve not even noticed they were there so really all they’re asking for is to carry on doing what we don’t already notice they’re doing

It's odd, none of this makes logical sense.

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