The Times on survey about trans women in female refuges

Sorry haven't read all this thread but this survey has also been reported in other newspapers.

One of which pointed out the signifigant think which is there is a decrease in support for trans women in refuges etc., since previous one.

ie mumsnet, JKR and others are getting the message out

Also, the survey has not done what others have done which is distinguish between trans women who self identify and trans women who have surgically transistioned. A recent You Gov poll showed this massively lowered the number who accepted SI trans women in refuges etc..

The real point is why are so many groups doing these surveys.

I think we should not get caught up in the detail of each one but keep an idea of who is trying to infuence who and why with this surveys.

And

on a different topic someone mentioned the Mermaids lawyer and A level law texts.

there is a whole thread about this here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3990483-The-Times-and-Harry-The-Owl

Did anyone link to the report? I assume it's this one:

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/publication-download/attitudes-transgender-people

I read a tweet the other day that there is rumblings of disquiet despite activists belief to the contrary that in at least one of the Nordic countries the women’s refuges are unhappy with allowing males in. The refuges are used by homeless prostitutes who come to sleep after shifts of ‘servicing men’. They are unhappy with having to share facilities with people with penises, with male socialisation and who may even still smell male after their work. But they have no where else to go so have kept quiet. Pressure is building though.

Just listen to experts. Not the media or bigotry.

I wonder how you would describe nailing a dead rat to the door of a rape refuge because they want to remain single sex?

Or removing their funding, for the same reason?

How would you describe the mumsnetter whose PTSD prevents her from accessing shelters/refuges which allow males?

Therefore, she is homeless, travelling across the country in a vain effort to find sanctuary. Because, where she comes from, there isn't a single shelter that is female only.

Is she expert enough or just another bigot?

I wonder whether the result would be the same if the question asked were "should people with penises have access to women's refuges"

When I have spoken to people about trans issues I have found that often people don't realise that a trans women = male identifying as a women and think that a transman = male identifying as a women. The old term of transexual seems not to have the same confusion. People with penises seems to be clearer.

Blimey, that picture of Liz Truss - she could be India Willoughby's sister!

!!
Someone who uses the word bigotry to describe what you are going to say?

Why would anyone want to engage in listening to someone who

Here's a letter from female survivors. Nice that so many people talk over them.

fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Survivors-letter.pdf

Just listen to experts. Not the media or bigotry.

No, let's listen to the women who need to use them, not people with a Stonewall-driven agenda. And what the fuck it has to do with Mermaids, a trans lobby group focussed on children, I'm not sure.

The statistics which are probably impossible to collect but the only ones which really matter are:
1)are women who need refuges 'comfortable' with TW being allowed to use them
2) how many women who need refuges are not using them because of the potential of males being in them?

I agree.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/FPFWreportt_19SEPT2018.pdf

They're perfectly aware. They just lie.

I know.

Just becaus Mermaids have their head in the sand and are therefore not aware of the many instances in which there have been problems doesn't indicate that this has never happened.

They're perfectly aware. They just lie.

[quote Gottalife]Just listen to experts. Not the media or bigotry.

survivorsnetwork.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Letter-to-Prime-Minister-regarding-GRA-Consultation-July-2020.pdf

nottinghamwomenscentre.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Letter-to-the-PM-GRA.pdf[/quote]
From your first link.
As highlighted by the organisation Mermaids, “trans people have been using toilets,trying on clothes in changing rooms, accessing domestic violence facilities, and generally getting on with their lives for as long as single-sex spaces have existed and there is absolutely no evidence we’re aware of, from the police, local authorities, shops, refuges or anywhere else besides, that predators have used the provisions of the Equality Act 2010 to gain access to women’s spaces. None.”

Just becaus Mermaids have their head in the sand and are therefore not aware of the many instances in which there have been problems doesn't indicate that this has never happened.

Have a look at this thread for multiple instances of predators entering women's spaces to commit offences.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Just listen to experts. Not the media or bigotry.

survivorsnetwork.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Letter-to-Prime-Minister-regarding-GRA-Consultation-July-2020.pdf

nottinghamwomenscentre.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Letter-to-the-PM-GRA.pdf

Context:

Female victims of male violence need a female-only therapeutic environment to recover. For the last 50 years, such an environment has been provided in refuges and rape crisis centres.

Questions:

Do you agree that these services should also support males who identify as trans?

Do you agree that these services should include these males who identify as trans in the female-only therapeutic environment? This will exclude all female victims who cannot recover in a mixed-sex therapeutic environment from these services.
_
That's the questions I would ask. Given what I know about funding and service delivery, I would probably answer a reluctant yes or indecisive don't know to the first. That's because services are now increasingly required to cater to males without however receiving any extra funding to do so. Which is necessary precisely because you can't just slot males into the service you provide without creating a new service for them, alongside your existing female-only therapeutic environment.

And an unshakeable no to the second.

How do you reassign a person's sex?

Good question, Datun. The people who wrote that into law obviously weren't scientists or doctors if they thought that people could change sex.

Also what are the 'other attributes of sex' which are not physiological?

“A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex”

Thoughts are not in the EQA. More misrepresentation of the law.

Doesn't 'proposing to undergo' mean 'thinking about it'?

I've only read the second article. Having fairly recently come from a session of marking (quiver) I find it amazing that students who are so fucking precious about he/she pronouns and shit still assume authors are male - even if the article in question has a female name attached to it. If it is just an initial then it is never assumed that the author is female. Ditto neutral names like 'Pat' - it's always assumed it is Patrick and not Patricia.

There is a lot of ‘gate-keeping’ around DV services. Not quite the right word but with services over subscribed and additional issues such as drink/drugs and whether the woman is really going to work with support so as to ensure others aren’t made more vulnerable by actions of someone which may make the whole issue purely theoretical. DV community services also have a pre-acceptance meeting and are pretty strong on agreed group rules ime. This seems a way that any ‘demands’ to be included would be seen as possibly the very reason to exclude but other side of the coin is that women would have to agree to possibility of a trans woman joining.
But all in all survey shows no understanding of how such services operate in practice

A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex”

How do you reassign a person's sex?

“A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex”

Thoughts are not in the EQA. More misrepresentation of the law.