Impressive new article by Debbie Hayton.

Goosefoot you keep saying this place doesn’t have to be supportive. Is this a dig at trans widows because it feels like it?

(Thanks R0).

I wasn't talking about wanting to be the other sex, or wanting to do what they did.

Goose have you read the article by Dr Alcock about long accepted stages of child develpment? Its standard knowledge, the embedded video clips are good demonstrations.
(extract)
"By the time children are about 6 or 7 they are getting better at understanding that objects don’t change their real essence when they change their appearance but they still think that people change their sex when they change their appearance — this is known as sex (or gender, if you’re squeamish) constancy.

But at the same time — we’re talking 4, 5, 6 and even 7 — children do NOT understand that people’s genitals (and biology in general, but genitals are more obvious to small children) are what makes them boys or girls, men or women. Researchers think that earlier knowledge about biological differences between men and women does help children to understand at a younger age that people cannot change sex.
But it isn’t a complete answer — some children can understand that men have penises and women have vaginas, but still think that changing clothing makes a girl into a boy, if they also think that a cat wearing a dog mask has become a dog. In other words, to get to a mature understanding of sex constancy you need to understand what makes a boy and a girl, biologically, and also understand that the underlying essence of a thing isn’t dependent on its appearance."

medium.com/@katieja/young-children-reality-sex-and-gender-3421f4f165f1

I was convinced as a kid I was in fact a boy. I thought I felt like, looked, and was a boy. Whatever that means when you unpack it from an adult standpoint, children at 4 can absolutely think of themselves that way, and it seems clear that some people who go on to various types of gender identity issues have sometimes felt that way from a young age and it influences their actions.

I didn't think that was controversial even from a GC perspective.

I thought it was extremely controversial. You say you thought you felt like a boy. What some men or transwomen are saying is 'I feel like a woman'. They're not saying 'I think I feel like a woman'. It's not possible to 'feel like' something you are not. Because you don't know what it feels like to be anyone other than yourself.

I don't even know what it feels like to be a woman. I only know how I feel - that may not be like any other women. I certainly don't know what it feels like to be a man, because I don't even have the single example of myself to draw on.

People, children in particular, might feel uncomfortable with the stereotypes which are imposed on them because of their sex. So a gentle boy who likes pretty clothes might think he doesn't feel like a real boy, and therefore he must feel like a girl. Similarly for a tomboyish girl. The idea that if they don't identify with the stereotypes for their sex, or identify with the stereotypes for the opposite sex, they must 'feel like' the opposite sex.

But why did you think you were a boy? What gave you that idea?

Honestly, that idea is what has put academia, among other areas, into such trouble.

I'm sure with both my and your contributions, no one is mistaking this chat forum with academia.

*This is 'feminist chat'

It isn't, actually.*

It used to be

There are serious problems in all of this of taking typical developmental stages and re-framing them as anomalies. It's most odd.

It is indeed, & very concerning when adopted/promoted by people who should have an awareness of child development & Safeguarding.

From the article -
"the person’s physiology".

Is that how we have to refer to a person's biological sex, now that all the words we previously used have been redefined?

There are significant differences between a child wanting to be the opposite sex or presenting in stereotypical ways associated with the opposite sex and 'having a cross sex identity'

I wasn't talking about wanting to be the other sex, or wanting to do what they did.

Which is to say that although it says that at the top of the header, that's not the full title of this part of the forum.

In any case, any ideology includes discussion of definitions etc as part of it. Feminism isn't all about supportive groups and discussions. Honestly, that idea is what has put academia, among other areas, into such trouble.

There are significant differences between a child wanting to be the opposite sex or presenting in stereotypical ways associated with the opposite sex and 'having a cross sex identity'

This is 'feminist chat'

It isn't, actually.

What is a cross-sex identity? It's not possible to 'identify as' or 'feel like' something you are not.

Sure it is. I was convinced as a kid I was in fact a boy. I thought I felt like, looked, and was a boy. Whatever that means when you unpack it from an adult standpoint, children at 4 can absolutely think of themselves that way, and it seems clear that some people who go on to various types of gender identity issues have sometimes felt that way from a young age and it influences their actions.

I didn't think that was controversial even from a GC perspective.

Debbie may well have felt some sort of cross sex identification that predated any AGP.

What is a cross-sex identity? It's not possible to 'identify as' or 'feel like' something you are not.

they said they felt like a female from age 4, which does not really fit with AGP. This a mystery.

Its the common narrative construct.

Childen dont 'feel like the opposite sex' at this age & stage of development. Child psychology has long established understanding of how children develop language & classification.

The process is demonstrated really clearly in this important article by Dr Katie Alcock (Lancaster University developmental psychology) based on the speech she gave in April 2019 at a meeting organised by members of For Women Lancashire entitled 'Gender Identity: Safeguarding Children and Young People'

'Young children, reality, sex and gender'
(extract)
I read Twitter a lot and I’ve come across this statement — that children who are “trans” knew they had a “gender identity” different to their biological sex when they were very young, 3, 4 years old — quite a lot.
For example, this tweet by Mermaids¹, a lobby group that advises families who think their child is trans (and only ever says YES your child IS trans), and trains schools (recently refusing to engage with a biology graduate school governor), quotes a study by psychologists at the University of Washington:

"Trans kids as young as 3 understand their gender identity. Study"

So, what exactly do these type of studies and quotes mean by “gender”, “sex”, “identity” etc.? What have psychologists found out about children’s developing knowledge of sex and gender?
Well, this research has been going on for a loooong time. All the studies I’m going to talk about are really robust — well replicated — this means that lots of researchers have found the same thing time and time again. We have known about some related aspects of children’s thinking since the 1920s or earlier and some of the main, older studies in this area are from the 1960s. This is not a flash in the pan. (continues)
... it takes children some time to work out both whether they themselves are a girl or a boy, and that both they and others cannot change sex. Working out which they are themselves happens earlier, and is based in all the studies that have been done on physical appearance and stereotypes. (continues)
... Making generalisations is a very useful skill for a baby or child — if they couldn’t make generalisations, they would never be able to work out that a new cat they saw was in fact a cat, or a new apple was just as good to eat as the last one, or a new car is likely also to go places. Children can work out at a very young age that there are men and women, boys and girls, in the world — it’s probably quite useful for them to work this out in the general scheme of things².
So when they see all the girls at nursery wearing pink and having long hair, well, that’s what girls do! And they also realise, from what people are saying, and from how their parents dress them, what toys they are given, and what toys other children who look like them (same clothes, same hair) what they are supposed to like and do based on what sex they are."(continues)
medium.com/@katieja/young-children-reality-sex-and-gender-3421f4f165f1

It’s more likely to be a multifactorial interplay of aspects. Debbie may well have felt some sort of cross sex identification that predated any AGP. There could be a bidirectional relationship

Grayson Perry says his cross dressing practice/fetish began around the age of 4....and he associated being a little girl with being taken care of - hence 'Claire'.

I don't think you can 'feel' either sex.

You may want to be the other sex because of, say, in the case of a girl - not wanting to wear dresses, to be able to play football, take physics, play at 'war' with the boys, not wanting the harassment and sexism that any child can observe with their own eyes. You may have been brought up by your dad and a household of brothers and think that you are 'boyish'.

But how can you feel what cannot be explained?

I like pink - so? Pink was a boy baby colour - its a colour (imagine being colour blind!)

I like to play with dolls. Action man is a doll - we played with him when we were little girls. Why can't any child play with a baby doll, Action man or Barbie (who says they can't?)

I want to wear dresses. Well, I don't and I wear trousers - which used to be a 'man' thing. Wear a dress if you like - but is it any dress or just ones that are colourful and princess-like? Why is that, and can't 'boys clothes' be colourful and pretty too?

I like boys in 'that way'. So does my male cousin, next question please!

they said they felt like a female from age 4, which does not really fit with AGP. This a mystery.

Only if you distill the aetiology of trans women down to a simplistic two-category typology.

It’s more likely to be a multifactorial interplay of aspects. Debbie may well have felt some sort of cross sex identification that predated any AGP. There could be a bidirectional relationship.

Cross sex identity could express itself as AGP within the context of male biology and some components of sexuality. Equally AGP can lead to dysphoria and a type of cross sex identity. Or a complex interplay of both.

Current thread discussing the impressive article Spero wrote this week (which seems yet to attract as much attention as Dr Hayton's) she comments:

But to tell anyone that the answer to any unhappiness or shame that they feel is to attempt to change their body, to make their identity dependent upon what they can get other people to accept is such a stupid, damaging thing to do. That we are teaching this to our children, as young as four years old, makes me despair.

What I NEEDED as a teenager, so desperately, was for someone to sit with me and discuss the reality of my life. That I would always need a prosthetic, that yes, it would limit what I could do and yes, some people would be unkind to me because of it. But. having come to terms with that I could then have directed my energies into living the life I have not the life I wished I could have.

What I see now in the whole trans debate is some kind of mass scale delusion. That the way to deal with the sadness and confusion of some teenagers or the unexpressed sexual fetish of some older men, is to attempt to shape the whole world to accommodate them or to mutilate their bodies to support a fantasy.

article: medium.com/@SVPhillimore/what-my-artifical-leg-taught-me-about-artifice-a64ca6f3b658

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3813472-Truly-brave-and-stunning-piece-by-Sarah-Phillimore-What-My-Artificial-Leg-Taught-Me-About-Artiface

Lauding transsexuals and autogynephiles in feminist spaces directly harms trans widows by excluding them from said space- spaces that were set up to support women. Imagine needing the help of other women but being unable to avail yourself of it because your husband had got there first?

Tinsel youve done so much to try to make & keep supportive space for the women deeply impacted by their husbands /partners "desire to have a female body"
Having listened for the last few years to you & other incredibly strong eloquent women who self-descrbe as 'transwidows', Dr Hayton's description of the impact this has on women & children seems an extraordinary & disrespectful minimisation of the impact of the this group of husbands/father's sexual needs.

extract from Quilette article,
"I May Have Gender Dysphoria. But I Still Prefer to Base My Life on Biology, Not Fantasy" written by Debbie Hayton
"heterosexual autogynephiles—self-attracted men who prefer to conceive of themselves as women—who typically come out as trans women later in life (and often to the great surprise of family and friends)."

The barriers which prevent women speaking about the impact of their male patner's autogynaephilia are immense. Some manage to though & its a shame those with influence/power havent listened better.

Make More Noise Manchester
August 2019
'A Plea for Help for Feminists from a Trans Widow'
makemorenoisemanc.wixsite.com/mysite/post/a-plea-for-help-for-feminists-from-a-trans-widow

Let A Woman Speak Plymouth event
25 Aug 2018 Abigail Rowland
from 1:18:15

Woman's Hour
January 2019
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3473080-Powerful-R4Womans-Hour-transwidow-interview-with-a-woman-describing-the-devastating-impact-of-her-husbands-transition-on-her-their-marriage-and-children?

Also true of the children of 'transitioners'
August 2019
childrenoftransitioners.org/2019/08/09/on-the-pressure-to-pretend-that-its-all-ok/

Powerful review, 'Your childhood, now freshly whitewashed! (Reviewing 'Nothing Ever Happens Here)' about the recently published children's book about a father's late transition which will be promoted in many schools.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3810422-New-blog-post-by-Children-of-Transitioners

I don't think Debbie is a true ally to women and certainly isn't an ally to trans people. The main person Debbie is looking out for is himself.

..and whatever the outcome of that revelation it is surely better for that which lies in darkness of AGP to come to light...it can then be properly discussed & debated.

But, to me, the only thing relevant to AGP in feminism is how it impacts on women- more often than not their wives and children.

Hayton coming to terms and talking about hayton's AGP is not a feminist issue in itself. It's the effects on women that is the issue, therefore excluding the very women impacted the most seems wrong.

My position has moved massively in four years. In early 2016 I still thought I was some sort of woman and I got very upset when challenged because I couldn't defend my claims without resorting to gobbledegook.

NASUWT Trans Equality in Schools and Colleges
Advice and Guidance for Teachers and Leaders was published in 2017
At the front & end is acknowledgement,
^"The NASUWT is very grateful to Dr Debbie Hayton (Teacher) for
assisting in the development of this guidance."^

It is intended to impact the whole school community- children & adults & will have done so for the last few years.
(extract)
"According to research conducted on behalf of the Home Office, they may comprise 1% of the population: one teacher and several children in each school. They do not by necessity share anything in common with each other beyond the experience of gender incongruence, where their gender identity, or inner feeling of self as a woman or a man, does not coincide with their biological sex or the gender norms attributed to their sex. "

The policy has many Safeguarding as well as legal issues & is based on self-id for all male teachers including those described euphemistically as 'dual role'. Presumably this refers to the 'old joke in the community' in Dr Hayton's article:
“What’s the difference between a transvestite and a transsexual? About five years.”

NASUWT advice to SLT makes clear the Union will support perceived discrimination claims with legal action though this is clearly more for the benefit of its members who are Schoolmasters under the wide self-id trans umbrella rather than Women Teachers who have the protected characteristic of sex.
(extract)
"Supporting Dual-role People
Some people manage their gender dysphoria by living as a man or a woman in different aspects of their lives. For example, they may work in a male role but socialise in a female role.
Although the protected characteristic under the Equality Act is gender reassignment, it is best to assume that dual-role people are covered by perception that they might transition.
Like everyone else they deserve to be treated with dignity
and respect.
In practical terms, there should be no issues unless the different aspects of their lives overlap in some way. For example, a male teacher might want to attend a staff party as a woman. In that case they would probably prefer to use a female name and feminine pronouns, and they should be allowed to use the toilets appropriate to the gender in which they are presenting.
As referenced on page 4, it is always far better to ask the person concerned before applying any arbitrary label to them. "
www.nasuwt.org.uk/uploads/assets/uploaded/085066bb-c224-40de-b79e2a1358801ee9.pdf

More significantly is the impact within the school on pupils, especially girls.
Teachers have great influence on those they teach not just from the content of their lessons but in modelling what dignity
and respect for 'everyone' means in practice.

NASUWT is also a partner (with NSPCC & Stonewall) to the CPS school toolkit on 'Trans Hate Crime.' This was released publically last week. Parents, teachers, governors & those concerned to protect Safeguarding should be aware of the document & its implications.

important threads including advice from teachers with Safeguarding expertise:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3809302-CPS-school-hate-crime-guidance-we-must-complain

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3804613-New-Year-New-Judicial-Review-CPS-Hate-Crime-Guidance-for-schools

Maybe my frustration is with the women who label the article impressive and those who think that hayton's opinion and inclusion here is worth the risk of excluding women on feminist chat

I agree about the word 'impressive' in the thread opener. If I'd started the thread I wouldn't have worded it that way. But from a purely personal perspective Debbie having become a public figure will inevitably chart their 'development' publicly.......and whatever the outcome of that revelation it is surely better for that which lies in darkness of AGP to come to light...it can then be properly discussed & debated.