Transsexuals leaving the Stonewall umbrella

I do make a distinction between homosexual transsexuals who have body dysphoria and heterosexual AGPs. I wish the former could find a place in society without medicalising their desire to be women. They are a very small percentage of people. I wish the latter would keep their fetish to themselves and their co-fetishists.
I agree with this and support this statement, but still think sex segregated spaces should be maintained. I have sympathy for the first group, not responsibility for them.

Please do not underestimate how manipulative male transexuals can be. If you're in any doubt, feel free to have a look at the trans widows thread.

They're frightened that the TRA's will cause us to exclude all males from our spaces so they're being conciliatory in order to preserve the ground they already have.

And we allow them to parade all over gender critical feminism, and to stand on our platforms, giving no thought to how by doing so we are excluding their wives from having our support.

I'm becoming increasingly angry about this.

I do make a distinction between homosexual transsexuals who have body dysphoria and heterosexual AGPs

But unless you’re Layla Moran there’s no way to tell the difference.

I also think that they can set a magnificent example by broadening the bandwidth of what it means to be male. Reclaim male toilets, changing rooms, the Hampstead Men’s Pond. Show everyone that if men aren’t broadminded enough to accept them, it’s the MEN who have the problem & need re-educating.

Thus excluding

Particularly when we allow them to appropriate feminism, this excluding their female partners.

Yes I'm aware of Blanchard's typology Josepheen, I'm just increasingly cynical that there's much of a difference in practical terms.

It seems likely that in the past homophobia may well have exerted a powerful influence, so too sexism.

I do make a distinction between homosexual transsexuals who have body dysphoria and heterosexual AGPs

Its likely more complex than simply two groups as identified in the recent BMJ article by clinicians:
(extract)
"Regulated medical practitioners should follow a framework of evidence, not simply respond to client expectations. Creating that evidence to inform quality standards is an ethical imperative. We need research to explore the interplays between gender identity, mental health and neurodevelopmental problems, sexual orientation, autogynephilia, and unpalatable gender roles"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3410257-BMJ-article-We-need-research-to-explore-the-interplays-between-gender-identity-mental-health-and-neurodevelopmental-problems-sexual-orientation-autogynephilia-and-unpalatable-gender-roles

I'm with Shiela Jeffries on this.

Speech at first We Need To Talk event (after Maria Maclachlan was assaulted at Speakers' Corner). Sheila Jeffries describes the transgender movement as part of mens's sexual rights movement and men's violence against women:

Sheila Jeffries important speech on the relevent International policy developments which have framed transgender/ cross dressing rights and International men's rights advocates:
'Inconvenient Women' event London June 2018

Speech at We Need To Talk November 2018
'The invention of gender dysphoria'

Tinsel
The perspectives and experiences of women and chidren impacted by a male person's gender transition / expression is so important.

All women should be aware of other women's experiences such as on the transwidows threads here, the recent Radio 4 interview, speech by Abigail Rowland at LAWS Plymouth 2018 etc

(from 1:18)
"Abigail is a poet, writer and former teacher, also a 'former transwidow'

www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqxzLy0O-4E

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3473080-Powerful-R4Womans-Hour-transwidow-interview-with-a-woman-describing-the-devastating-impact-of-her-husbands-transition-on-her-their-marriage-and-children

Following the Stella O Malley documentary, I need to know whether a transsexual has a female partner and if so how they have been treated during the transition, before I can see them as anything other than wolves in sheep's clothing.

I'm with Shiela Jeffries on this.

It has to be a blanket segregation.

Agreed. Otherwise, we are back to "oh, but it's different for me" nonsense.

If you a penis-haver, you are male and do not belong in women's spaces.

Risk assessements to identify which male transpeople are a risk to females can only take into account convictions. Its naive to think this is an appropriate tool.

Furthermore, it totally ignores the women involved. Of course, I don't know why I'm surprised.

It's allowing the men to determine the 'correct' reaction, the 'acceptable' criteria based on the men. Many women don't want any man, even if they're a bloody saint, in their space.

Again, I use the example of my father-in-law. Delightful, kind, wouldn't hurt a fly, but I don't want to get undressed in front of him and I don't expect other women to do so either.

This isn't about men. Despite many people being almost incapable of thinking otherwise.

Claims to effective 'case by case' risk management are fundamentally flawed if they are not able to recognise that there is substantial risk posed by male people (whether they identify as transsexual, transwoman, non-binary or men) in vulnerable / intimate female spaces.

It is well established that the majority of male-pattern violence against women and girls goes unreported and when reported is poorly prosecuted.

Risk assessements to identify which male transpeople are a risk to females can only take into account convictions. Its naive to think this is an appropriate tool.

Single sex spaces for women and girls are fo their safety, privacy and dignity.

(& yes of course NAMALT however being male is a very significant risk factor)

It has to be a blanket segregation.

This.

Women have a right to women only provisions. Case by case means some men allowed, which in turn means endless arguing by men as to how many of them, under what circumstances, to what degree -

Which confirms: a belief that women have no right to spaces away from men, no right to have their choices respected, and it's up to men to agree what favours they may be conditionally granted in this direction.

Fuck that.

It's a good letter, I am glad to see groups openly turn away from Stonewall and put it in plain sight that Stonewall no longer represents any interests but transgender ones, and that's to the detriment of all the groups who originally formed Stonewall and who did genuinely suffer inequality under the law. But no men should be using women's spaces.

Actually, no. If, by one on one, they mean the EHRC guidance of case by case to be person-by-person and not service-by-service, as I suspect they do, this is a major, major thing we are fighting against.

Exactly.

You're simply going to be in a situation where men will enter all those places, and women are then expected to start a process to turf them out. It will become commonplace for toilets to be mixed sex, changing rooms to be mixed sex, amateur sports teams, etc.

Shortlists? What could possibly be a reason to assess on a one-to-one basis?

There will be constant lawsuits. It has to be a blanket segregation.

We also accept exemptions where in things such as refuges, shortlists and sports one on one assessment is made and we can be excluded.

I think that's a recognition that there are places and situations where they shouldn't be.

Actually, no. If, by one on one, they mean the EHRC guidance of case by case to be person-by-person and not service-by-service, as I suspect they do, this is a major, major thing we are fighting against.

Case by case in this way means the destruction of women-only in the women's sector because nobody has the resources to accommodate this.

Always read the small print.

That said, it's an excellent letter, and I think TS who don't celebrate transgenderism are better off distancing themselves from Stonewall.

threads:
October 2017
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3069102-Stonewall-really-are-throwing-women-udner-the-bus-arent-they-sad

October 2018
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3384407-Times-letter-petition-STONEWALL-CRITICISED-undermining-women-s-sex-based-rights-and-protections-Jonny-Best-et-al

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3355712-Aimee-Challenor-Stonewall
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3477761-Andrew-Gilligan-Times-Green-high-flyer-Aimee-Challenor-hid-father-s-rape-charges-David-Challenor-A-paedophile-rapist-posed-a-major-safeguarding-risk-for-almost-two-years

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3488261-The-Financial-Juggernaut-that-is-Stonewall

In the absence/suppression of transexual voices, Maria Miller's Committee were led by the nose by Stephen Whittle, Stonewall and the likes of Jess Bradley.

Stephen Whittle is transsexual, so too Sarah Brown (Stonewall), Christine Burns, Karen Jones and many others who influenced policies including the GRA, prisons etc

The history of influence by TRAs and a small number of mostly male doctors is important, see thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

AngryAttackKittens wrote of thread above,
I'm going to point every "but the nice, harmless old school transsexuals whose movement has been unfairly appropriated by the nasty transgender people" person to this thread from now on.

All the same elements we're seeing now were there in that old BBC roundtable from the 70s with the 4 transwomen, the politician, and the doctor. None of this is new.

Wasn't there a transwoman athlete who said they accepted that one price they paid was self-excluding themself from women's competitions?
Renee Richards said something along these lines after having competed as a woman some years previously. It was a reflection after the fact.
Richards went on to coach Navratilova.