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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Let's go back to 2007

166 replies

Anlaf · 30/12/2018 00:36

I was having a footle - back in 2007-2008 there were a number of submissions to Parliamentary committee on laws relating to hate crimes, and on extreme pornography.

They are pretty interesting. Shall we have a rummage?

Here publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmpublic/cmpbcriminal.htm

And here publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmpublic/cmpbcriminal.htm

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AmaryllisNightAndDay · 26/11/2024 08:02

Thanks. Very useful thread for anyone wondering how we got here. 2007 and earlier.

TalkingintheDark · 26/11/2024 01:06

pattihews · 03/09/2022 15:09

I'm bumping this old thread because I started reading it today and wished I'd seen it first time round because it explains a lot. I hope others will find it interesting too. Even though I've been on this forum for years, there are always new connections and new background to be discovered.

I knew a couple who went to Beaumont Society socials in London back in the 90s (agony for her and the other wives, heaven for him). It had never occurred to me that Stephen Whittle was involved because as far as I was concerned it was all about male cross-dressers. So now we have an idea of how Whittle and Burns achieved such influence behind the scenes. The friend who was dragged to the BS by her husband was at pains to assure me that there were people from all walks of life attending meetings. She wasn't allowed to say who, but I got the distinct impression she was talking about people in positions of influence as well as more ordinary people like her head teacher-husband.

agony for her and the other wives, heaven for him

That’s both desperately sad and absolutely enraging.

Those men. They really did just see women, their own wives, as service humans.

Such absolute narcissism.

And of course it’s still very much the same today.

The bit about people (presumably the men, rather than their wives?) in positions of influence makes so much sense of the incredible success of their movement.

Ereshkigal · 23/11/2024 20:35

No problem, the thread is quite a wild ride isn't it.

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 23/11/2024 16:09

Thank you.

Ereshkigal · 23/11/2024 11:03

Bumping this thread with the FWS court case next week.

pattihews · 03/09/2022 17:24

It is, isn't it? I'm shock I missed it. Really explains how this ideology gained traction behind the scenes before any ordinary people had any idea what was going on.

My partner's friend dropped in while I was reading the thread and he's been reading it too. He's someone with an interest in the Cold War period and he commented on what amazing potential for blackmail the BS offered in the 60s and 70s and 80s. I've told him not just back then, what about now?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/09/2022 16:27

It's an important thread, well done for bumping it.

pattihews · 03/09/2022 15:09

I'm bumping this old thread because I started reading it today and wished I'd seen it first time round because it explains a lot. I hope others will find it interesting too. Even though I've been on this forum for years, there are always new connections and new background to be discovered.

I knew a couple who went to Beaumont Society socials in London back in the 90s (agony for her and the other wives, heaven for him). It had never occurred to me that Stephen Whittle was involved because as far as I was concerned it was all about male cross-dressers. So now we have an idea of how Whittle and Burns achieved such influence behind the scenes. The friend who was dragged to the BS by her husband was at pains to assure me that there were people from all walks of life attending meetings. She wasn't allowed to say who, but I got the distinct impression she was talking about people in positions of influence as well as more ordinary people like her head teacher-husband.

AnyOldPrion · 30/09/2021 09:07

This is an old thread from 2019, but contains a lot of relevant information relating to a more recent thread. So for any newcomers since then, I hope you will read and understand some of the history, and why this is such an intractable situation.

Italiangreyhound · 26/02/2020 01:50

Fascinating thread.

ArcheryAnnie · 17/06/2019 11:27

Late to this thread but:

"I said, 'You won't be showering my mother, sonny boy.'"

Dear "Kathleen, 48", I'd love to take you for a pint/cup of tea sometime. You say what we're all thinking.

Sunkisses · 17/06/2019 05:12

Goodness what a fascinating thread! @PencilsInSpace, in Jane Fae's article you posted (about their attempts to stop the outlawing of extreme porn - including torture porn and bestiality) you point out the photo of our good friend Peter Tatchell at a pro-extreme porn demo at Parliament. Is that a younger Linda Riley beside him do you think? Bravely standing up for the rights of men to make and watch violent and misogynistic porn

OvaHere · 09/06/2019 13:02

Oh it was a corker. Bizarre references to The Exorcist galore.

Oh well. Back to the topic in hand.

Outanabout · 09/06/2019 12:18

Damn, I wish I'd seen that post before it was deleted, sounds like it was a good one.

terfsandwich · 09/06/2019 11:56

What a glorious rant! We reject trans women because we're not feminine enough! Yee har!

Yeahnahyeah · 09/06/2019 07:32

GrinGrinGrin my sides are aching.

OvaHere · 09/06/2019 01:14

This thread is a deeply upsetting read, you just feel like throwing your hands in the air and giving up. I thought things were improving for women, then you find that all the time people were conniving behind the scenes to push us back down to the bottom of the heap - and not even being allowed to occupy that lowliest spot, because we have cis-privilege.

I agree, it's disturbing to know just how long it's been in the making, mainly out of view via networking and backroom deals.

Now it's out in the open though it can be challenged and certain aspects are getting a lot of light shone on them.

barringtondolby · 09/06/2019 00:49

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Outanabout · 08/06/2019 21:31

This thread is a deeply upsetting read, you just feel like throwing your hands in the air and giving up. I thought things were improving for women, then you find that all the time people were conniving behind the scenes to push us back down to the bottom of the heap - and not even being allowed to occupy that lowliest spot, because we have cis-privilege.

Back in the first few posts, that description of the six foot carer and the old lady, how could anyone read that and think the carer was the poor vulnerable person in the situation? Why would you allow that person anywhere near a frail elderly person?

R0wantrees · 16/04/2019 12:08

16/4/2019
Unherd article by Julie Bindel:
'The birth of the transsexual empire
One woman saw the trans bullies coming'
(extract)
“Transsexualism has taken only twenty-five years to become a household word,” reads the opening line of the 1979 book, The Transsexual Empire: The Making of the She-Male. The author, Janice Raymond, a renowned academic and feminist campaigner, caused a massive kerfuffle when she published the work, which seriously tackled the theory and consequences of diagnosing the feelings of body dysphoria and the unbearable desire to live and present as the opposite sex.

Raymond wrote TTE as a response to the rising rates of sex-change surgery in the US. She had long been concerned about the medical practices that negatively impacted women, such as unnecessary hysterectomies and caesareans. This led her to question the medical consequences of the bodily mutilation inherent in transsexual surgery, and the detrimental effects of taking lifelong hormones.

She predicted that the handful of gender identity clinics treating adult transsexuals – the first of which opened in 1967 – would become what she calls ‘sex role control centers’ for so-called deviant female and male children. “Such gender identity centers are already being used for the treatment of designated child transsexuals,” she wrote, before arguing that these centres would proliferate.

There are now at least 40 such clinics treating children’s ‘gender dysphoria’ in the United States, and in England there are seven treating adults, and only one at present that specialises in under 18s, but with calls for more. This is in spite of concerns about the effects that such treatment might have on individuals legally considered too young to make most major life decisions.

Small wonder, then, that 40 years after it was first published, TTE is perceived as an important foundation stone in gender critical feminist thinking." (continues)

concludes:
Four decades ago, Raymond saw how in a society obsessed with gender rules which determine how women and men should behave, that it would become easier and more acceptable to change bodies rather than behaviour. Did she also foresee how aggressive and demanding trans activists would eventually become, where ‘mis-gendering’ a trans person can be treated as a ‘hate crime’ and reported to police?

“Yes” she tells me. “I always suspected that transsexualism would change women’s lives in a way that would attempt to define us out of existence.”
unherd.com/2019/04/the-transsexual-empire/?=sideshare

Let's go back to 2007
R0wantrees · 08/04/2019 13:58

important current thread with links to four Times articles highlighting serious Safeguarding & Duty of Care issues concerning the treatment of children questioning their gender identity. The roles played by GIDS Tavistock, Mermaids, GIRES & Gendered Intelligence are criticised by medical professionals:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3553935-Times-article-calls-to-end-transgender-experiment-on-children

Ereshkigal · 21/03/2019 09:08

So spot on, from 40 years ago. I can see why Raymond drives TRAs incandescent with rage.

MsTiggywinkletoyou · 21/03/2019 01:24

I saw this thread's been revived, and wanted to add re John Bercow: he and his wife Sally have given interviews about their eldest child Oliver having autism. J&S are or were involved in charities such as the National Autistic Society and Ambitious about Autism. Therefore it seems fair to assume that they know about the changing patterns of diagnosis of girls with autism spectrum disorder. They may or may not be up to speed on the overlap between girls with ASD and ROGD.

R0wantrees · 20/03/2019 22:34

Interesting perspective from 40 years ago.
H/t Funkaccino for sharing:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3538513-I-think-youll-all-find-this-interesting

Male and Female Created He Them
By THOMAS SZASZJUNE 10, 1979
IN the old days, when I was a medical student, if a man wanted to have his penis amputated, my psychology professors said that he suffered from schizophrenia, locked him up in an asylum and threw away the key. Now that I am a professor. my colleagues in psychiatry say that he is a “transsexual,” my colleagues in urology refashion his penis into a perineal cavity they call a vagina, and Time magazine puts him on its cover and calls him “her.” Anyone who doubts that this is progress is considered to be ignorant of the discoveries of modern psychiatric sexology, and a political reactionary, a sexual bigot, or something equally unflattering." (continues)

concludes:
Miss Raymond quotes a Casablanca surgeon, who has operated on more than 700 American men, characterizing the transsexual transformation as follows: “I don't change men into women. I transform male genitals into genitals that have a female aspect. All the rest is in the patient's mind ".

Not quite. Some of the rest is in society's “mind.” For the fact is that Renee Richards was endorsed by Billie Jean King as a real woman and was accepted by the authorities monitoring women's professional tennis as a “real woman.” This authentication of a “constructed female” as a real female stands in dramatic contrast to the standard rules of Olympic competition in which the contestants’ bodily contours count for nothing, their sexual identity being based solely on their chromosomal makeup.

Miss Raymond has rightly seized on transsexualism as an emblem of modern society's unremitting — though increasingly concealed — antifeminism. And she correctly emphasizes that “the terminology of transsexualism disguises the reality ... that transsexuals ‘prove’ they are transsexuals by conforming to the canons of the medical‐psychiatric institution that evaluates them on the basis of their being able to pass as stereotypically masculine or feminine, and that ultimately grants surgery on this basis.” The “transsexual empire” is thus a Trojan horse in the battle between the sexes, helping men to seduce unsuspecting women, or women who ought to know better, to join forces with their oppressors.

Still, why should anyone (especially feminist women) object to men wanting to become women? Isn't imitation the highest form of flattery? Precisely herein lies the “liberal” sexologists’ betrayal of human dignity and integrity: They support the (male) transsexual's claim that he wants to be a woman — when, in fact, what he wants is to be a caricature of the male definition of “femininity.” What makes transsexual surgery a male‐supremacist obscenity is the fact that transsexing surgeons do not perform the operation on all clients (just for the money) but insist that the client prove that he can “pass” as a woman. That is as if Catholic priests were willing to convert only those Jews who could prove their Christianity by socially appropriate acts of antiSemitism. Janice Raymond's analysis is bitterly correct. The very existence of the “transsexual empire” is evidence of the persistence of our deep‐seated religious and cultural preju‐dices against woman.

The war between the sexes is a part of our, human heritage. It's no use denying It. If that war ever ends, it will be not because of a phony armistice arranged by doctors, but because men, women and children will place personal dignity before social sex‐role identity."

www.nytimes.com/1979/06/10/archives/male-and-female-created-he-them-transexual.html

R0wantrees · 13/03/2019 19:32

BettyDuMonde wrote:

"I also found 66 pages of Christine Burns (Stephen Whittle’s Press for Change co founder) complaining about trans services (2006)

ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Health/Essays_In_Trans_Healthcare.pdf

Looks like Barret has changed his mind between 2009 and 2015 - or had some other, undisclosed motivation for supporting Jones (Jones’ victim worked in a transvestite shop so I suppose it can be argued that it wasn’t POGD in Jones’ case - Prison Onset Gender Dysphoria).

Perhaps Barrett has reached Peak Trans?"

from link above by Christine Burns:
'Echoes of a Bygone Age'
First Published 20th November 2004
(extract)
"The Parliamentary Forum only meets 2 or 3 times every year. Its strength, however, is that it provides a uniquely strong forum for expert stakeholders from all sides in this field.
Meetings are regularly attended by a healthy contingent of well known practitioners... people like Russell Reid, Kevan Wylie, Domenico de Ceglie and Richard Green are regulars... along
with Dr Joyce Martin, a retired GP who is also a trans woman.
Alongside them sit the leading faces in trans campaigning and support .. including Stephen Whittle, Claire McNab, Tracy Dean, people from groups such as the Gender Trust, GIRES...
and myself.
Then there are specialists in particular areas, such as equal opportunities, policing and nursing.
Last, but not least, there are the MPs who get along regularly too... with Dr Lynne Jones MP in the chair. Very often Dr Evan Harris MP manages to attend too... or sends one of his researchers.
(Evan Harris is a significant figure in this, as he was Liberal Democrat Health Spokesman until recently, when personal circumstances forced him to scale down his commitments).
To get such a broad church to agree on a very detailed document is no mean feat. It has taken literally years... and has come down to a sentence by sentence reading ordeal over the last few meetings of the forum, as all sides managed to agree forms of words to describe the detail and aspirations of trans people's care to mutual satisfaction." (continues)

cont..
"In the middle of his leaked memo Dr Barrett takes issue with a statement in the Funding Guidelines draft which says quite clearly that "Transsexualism is not a Mental Illness".

This is quite a significant point to get clear of course... principally because if the condition were a mental illness then surgery, whilst perhaps mitigating the symptoms, would not be expected to effect a "cure". We would all still be, to put it bluntly, mentally ill... and potentially unfit to hold our jobs and roles in society as a result.
Fortunately the Government doesn't think we are mentally ill. It has said so in its policies ... after getting to know some of us in far more depth than the average psychiatrist!
In fact the Government is quite unequivocal. It says, [Transsexualism] "is not a mental illness. It is a condition considered in itself to be free of other pathology (though transsexual people can suffer depression or illnesses like anyone else)."
[See www.dca.gov.uk/constitution/transsex/policy.htm ]
Dr Barrett thinks differently though. He says in his leaked memo,
"It would seem to me that it is by definition a mental illness since it is a diagnosis currently appearing in the ICD 10 in the Mental Illness Section" (continues)

from thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3531873-Searching-for-expert-statement-re-male-prisoners-seeking-transition

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