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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Letter in the Times - Plea To The Trans Lobby from group of transsexuals

682 replies

PimmsnLemonade · 08/12/2018 00:23

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/times-letters-reasons-for-private-schools-oxbridge-success-sqjb6kkgt

OP posts:
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6
ChewyLouie · 18/12/2018 13:57

Yes , I expect she won’t Betty.I had a lot of respect for Shami, such a shame to read her views re the transgender cult.

BettyDuMonde · 18/12/2018 13:55

Yes, Leanne - please do seek out some professional mental health/bereavement support.

I absolutely welcome your resolve to challenge the activists that are currently doing transsexual people a disservice, but not if it is at such dire cost to your own well-being.
Losing one’s mother is life-changing for lots of us. It’s 14 years since mine died and I still miss her everyday. Be kind to yourself.

ChewyLouie · 18/12/2018 13:55

Hi Leanne, just read your comment and I agree with R0wantrees, take care of yourself 💐

BettyDuMonde · 18/12/2018 13:51

I’m guessing Shami will never personally need a domestic violence refuge, nor is she likely to end up in prison.

R0wantrees · 18/12/2018 13:51

LeanneMills1961
I am concerned by your post.

Many here commended and supported your decision to speak out.
Its worth re-reading.

Just as the letter in The Times is recognised as important and appreciated.

Please do reach out to people you know or the anonymous support that is available (eg Samaritans)

ChewyLouie · 18/12/2018 13:48

The Shami Chakrabarti comment, very emotive to use the words migrant and refugee for men wanting to switch genders and in the process, obliterate the word woman. They are in no way poverty stricken, sanctuary seeking , migrants or refugees. They are often well established, privileged men using their privilege to strip women of their rights.

I do wonder if women supporting trans mtf are those who a) are fortunate enough to have never been abused by a male and b) think that once men are recognised as women then gender based inequalities will disappear. The unfortunate truth as we are beginning to see is that mtf will become the preferred female class and women will continue to be oppressed, this time within their own ‘sex’ class. Who benefits? Not women.

R0wantrees · 18/12/2018 13:40

April 2018 thread with links including the condemnation of intimidation of women attending WPUK Oxford meeting by the founder of Trans-Oxford ( a transsexual):
extract
"l‘m not condemning the meeting of Womans Place UK but the shameful campaign of bullying and intimidation organised by the students and transactivists outside of the QuakerHouse.
I’ve studied in Oxford, once a capital of freethought and freespeech, known for its fair debates with respect to the opinions of one’s opponents and refreshingly skilful and witty arguments challenging their views.

Bullying, although surfacing occasionally, was never welcome, especially, in the LGBT circles having too many victims of it knowing only too well how much it hurts. But last night the tables have turned - and the bullied became the bullies

I founded TransOxford in 2015 to promote the greater unity and more extensive communications between the separate transgender groups some of which had no idea of the others existing in the same city.

It eventually became a connecting hub between the trans groups in London Brighton, Reading, Swindon, Bristol, Bath.

I was promoting unity and understanding between these groups and the society around them, acceptance and equality and, most importantly, social integration of trans people with the rest of the world."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3233705-Really-like-this-video-from-a-trans-woman-with-very-good-insight

see also Michael Biggs
Associate Professor in Sociology and Fellow of St Cross College article:
'Free speech at Oxford:
Do women have the right to meet to discuss legislation?'
(extract)
"A meeting was held on 25 April 2018 to discuss proposed changes to the law on gender recognition. The proposed legislation will eliminate sex-segregated spaces and activities, from women’s refuges to competitive sports. In a democracy, people have the right to meet to discuss—and indeed oppose—legislative changes. This should be incontrovertible. I am appalled that a small number of students at Oxford used extreme measures to stop this meeting from being held. (continues)

(concludes)
I have entered this debate not because I am a feminist but because freedom of speech is one of the highest values of a democratic society, and the basic foundation of university life.
Transgender activism poses a grave threat to freedom of speech. I think of the young MPhil student who had to disguise herself to attend this meeting because she feared the reaction of fellow students. This is the generation that we have educated."

users.ox.ac.uk/~sfos0060/FreeSpeechOxford.pdf

LeanneMills1961 · 18/12/2018 13:37

It saddens me to see the conflict going on here between women and allied TS people. Come on folks, perhaps I'm just old fashioned but we really do need to put aside personal differences and be agreed that our enemy is Whittle, Burns and their entourage.

I'm not speaking here in the hope of gaining acceptance or likes, I signed that letter because I AM concerned about male violence towards women (I was regularly beaten up at school by the b'stards so I know what that's like). Then I did that Daily Mail piece to highlight the destructive mantra of the activists and its implications for your young.

I'll be candid. Since I lost my dear Mum I no longer care about life. If I died tomorrow it would not bother me in the slightest. Thanks to the scourge of the transsexual condition (NOT my transition you understand I did that purely in an attempt to survive) I'm leading a useless pathetic existence. Is this the real future that awaits many confused young people indoctrinated by the glossy propaganda of Whittle and his demented activists? Slag ME off instead if it makes you feel any better. It'll prepare me for what I face out there because I intend to oppose them. Yeah I'm just an unknown little shit while they're powerful and everyone can have a good dig and a laugh. Frankly I don't care what people think anymore. I do it because I believe in it and I do it because I've nothing to lose. At any rate it beats sliding into madness and suicide.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 18/12/2018 13:32

11th rule of misogyny: Basic pattern recognition skills are cruel and evil when they hurt men's feelings.

R0wantrees · 18/12/2018 13:24

Rose of Dawn (a transsexual) has made a number of well researched videos and podcasts about the intimidation done by transactivists.

www.youtube.com/user/AshleeK9/videos

She tweets at twitter.com/Rose_Of_Dawn

LangCleg · 18/12/2018 13:10

It's interesting that MN have recently produced a video about coercive control (as R0 has posted). One can watch it, then come to this thread for further enlightenment.

The only real answer to the question posed in this thread - how to prevent male people from intimidating, threatening, using violence on or coercive/abusive tactics towards women - is to exclude male people from women's spaces.

R0wantrees · 18/12/2018 12:57

I have previously been struck by the repeated use of the individual circumstances of posters (usually with a poor wee me subtext) to prevent women from talking about systemic issues because it will then seem mean and hurtful.

This has also included implicit & explicit (though unfounded) allegations of bullying due to gender identity.

SophoclesTheFox · 18/12/2018 12:53

beautifully put, bowl.

I have previously been struck by the repeated use of the individual circumstances of posters (usually with a poor wee me subtext) to prevent women from talking about systemic issues because it will then seem mean and hurtful.

R0wantrees · 18/12/2018 12:51

from Womans Place Uk

Cambridge Council and the Equality Act
Ann Sinnott, is a former Labour councillor at Cambridge City Council. She spoke at our Liverpool meeting. This is a transcript of her speech.

On 8 June 2018, I learned – on Twitter! – that Cambridge Council was in breach of the Equality Act (EA).

It had been discovered that many councils were routinely using the wrong terms for the EA protected characteristics of ‘Sex’ [instead using gender] and for ‘Gender reassigned’ [using trans, gender identity, transgender]. Once informed, most councils corrected either immediately or within a fairly short time.

Cambridge Council, however, was not just using the wrong terms. It was in serious breach in other ways. Though originally a Labour Bill, the Equality Act came into force under the Coalition govt on 1 Oct 2010. Just ten days later, transwoman Liberal Democrat Cllr Sarah Brown succeeded in getting the council’s existing Equality policy changed. The EA Single-sex exemption was set aside and women-only spaces and services in the city were abolished.

Once I knew, I spent several days trawling through council documents. I then wrote a briefing paper to the council’s leadership, including the CEO and the Labour Leader of the Council, setting out exactly where and how the Council was in breach of the EA and called for the immediate rescindment of the policy and the council’s return to lawfulness.

Eventually, it became clear that the council was determined to defer the issue until October. I was outraged. Cambridge women had the right to know what had happened to their spaces and services but as a member of the ruling group I wasn’t free to speak – and that burdened my conscience. Moreover, I had no confidence that the council would ever rescind the policy. So, I stood down.

Women need the privacy, dignity and safety of women-only spaces and services. Including public toilets. Why do we need these? I could speak in detail about the two occasions in Cambridge public toilets when I witnessed the shocked and distressed reactions of women, to an obvious male-born transwoman the first time, and to an aggressive male, actually dressed as a man, the second time.

Instead, I’ll focus on a friend’s experience. She was in Brighton, at a dance class and went to the mixed-sex toilets. Wearing a leotard which had to be removed from the neck down, she was effectively naked. She suddenly noticed a camera held in a man’s hand filming her under the cubicle partition. She screamed, the hand disappeared and so did the man. She was left distraught, too traumatised to go home alone and she never attended the class again. Now, no matter how desperate she is, she won’t use a public toilet anywhere unless other women are in there, and never at all after dark.

On 4 Oct 2018, Cambridge Council altered its equality policy to bring it in line with the Equality Act.

It no longer refers to transgender people but to Gender reassigned and Transsexuals.
It refers to the single-sex exemption being applied when it is a proportionate response to achieve a legitimate aim.
It states that the single-sex exemption will be applied only where there is clear evidence that this is necessary.
Clear evidence. But women generally don’t report, so how will evidence be gathered? My friend who was filmed didn’t complain. Neither did I, nor any of the other women present, about the two toilet incidents referred to above. The grossly under-reported crimes of sexual offence or domestic abuse also demonstrate that women rarely report or complain.

Advocates of mixed-sex facilities label those who defend female-only spaces ‘transphobe’, and say that women hysterically point to dangers that don’t exist. But data obtained by the Sunday Times, by an FOI request, suggests that mixed-sex toilets are more dangerous for women and girls than single-sex facilities.

Dangers do exist, and women know they do. We also know that the majority of victims of violence and/or abuse are female, the majority of perpetrators male.

We know it’s not all men, but when we walk down a deserted, dark, silent street, or see a male in the female toilets or in female changing rooms, we don’t know which type of man is behind us, or next to us, and so we are fearful. And when we are afraid our breathing changes, our hearts race, our stomachs clench and, as the involuntary physiological reaction of the ‘fight or flight’ response, also known as the ‘acute stress’ response, is triggered the hormone cortisol, which is known to be detrimental to health, is released and floods our bodies.

Women fought long and hard for the safe haven of female-only spaces and will fight to retain them.

Women have the right to the privacy, dignity and safety of women-only spaces and services."

womansplaceuk.org/cambridge-council-equality-act/

Cambridge Coucil's changes to Equality Act implementation and subsequent application were made by Sarah Brown (transsexual, former councillor, LibDem & member of Stonewall's influential Trans Advisory Committee)

threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3376567-anne-sinnott-vindicated-she-was-right

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3327625-venice-allen-speaks-to-anne-sinnott

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3399104-Times-Lib-Dem-trans-activists-hounded-abuse-victim-Natalie-Bird-Article-refers-to-Zoe-OConnell-Sarah-Brown

cantgetridofthekids · 18/12/2018 12:42

But it's obvious now that the GRA was flawed. Transpeople don't think it meets their needs, that why they want to make changes to it, less than 15 years after it was established.

As someone medically diagnosed and TS the GRA works for me.

The only people it doesn't suit are those that it wasnt written for in the first place.

Don't change it. Leave it as it is. It works for the people it was written for.

R0wantrees · 18/12/2018 11:57

"Morgane Oger is transsexual I believe"

So is Morgane's friend "Hailey Heartless".

Important & relevent Feminist Current articles by Meghan Murphy

January 2018
'Vancouver Women’s March becomes opportunity for misogynist threats against women
A woman holding a sign criticizing gender identity ideology at the Vancouver Women’s March has been targeted online.'

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/01/22/vancouver-womens-march-becomes-opportunity-misogynist-threats-women/

November 2018
'Twitter wants me to shut up and the right wants me to join them; I don’t think I should have to do either
I don’t want to choose between the left and the right, I want to engage in critical thought, challenge myself, and form my own opinions.'

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/11/20/twitter-wants-shut-right-wants-join-dont-think-either/

LangCleg · 18/12/2018 11:48

It’s an interesting phenomenon but it’s not of actual concern to women, who simply want ALL male bodies out of single sex services and spaces.

This. We're having a conversation about ourselves, hard as this is for some to grasp.

WeRiseUp · 18/12/2018 11:29

It's soo obvious to women, and not at all obvious to very many transsexuals.

Yes. And this is really infuriating because it demonstrates that annoying habit of members of the oppressor class (in whichever way you slice it) of saying "I didn't see it" or "Its never happened to me" therefore "I don't believe it is real" or "It can't be much of a problem". It's the ignorance of one's own privilege.

People who are male and have never experienced the vulnerability of being reproductively female can be very dense when it comes to being able to fathom women's nervousness, self-consciousness, high-alert and self-preservation planning when males are about.

Ereshkigal · 18/12/2018 11:26

Sorry meant to do italics

Ereshkigal · 18/12/2018 11:26

"Morgane Oger is transsexual I believe"

So is Morgane's friend "Hailey Heartless".

WeRiseUp · 18/12/2018 11:20

It’s an interesting phenomenon but it’s not of actual concern to women, who simply want ALL male bodies out of single sex services and spaces.

Yes. I am not particularly interested in the point at which one person (probably male) declares that a male is entitled to call themselves female, deceive women, ignore women's boundaries and use women's provision.

The only distinction that is important to me is between those males who respect women's boundaries and those who don't. The former can be allies but the latter can't.

Datun · 18/12/2018 11:19

But there’s a leap in the thinking next - that this then means one is entitled to access single sex provisions.

It's soo obvious to women, and not at all obvious to very many transsexuals.

There isn't a woman alive who sees single sex provision as having anything to do with the word validation. The concept wouldn't cross their mind.

You don't have to know anything about this debate, to feel the rising disconnect when it is being discussed with people who are not born women.

BettyDuMonde · 18/12/2018 11:10

20 year old dissertation centred around Manchester’s long established TG/TS social club. Includes discussion of a cultural tendency for TG/TS people to divide other TS/TG people into categories:

www.northernconcord.org.uk/disertation.htm

It’s an interesting phenomenon but it’s not of actual concern to women, who simply want ALL male bodies out of single sex services and spaces.

Bowlofbabelfish · 18/12/2018 11:00

Generics not genetics. I swear my autocorrect is sentient

Bowlofbabelfish · 18/12/2018 10:58

Trannsexual people do not have to " ask the permissions" of women to become as nearly as we can, female.

I’d like to pick up on this because I think there’s an important point and distinction here.

  1. Nobody needs anybody’s permission to look, dress and present as they wish. This I think is often used as an argument because it’s seen as a threat to the existence of the self. ‘You’re denying we exist’ etc. So no, you don’t need anyone’s permission to look as much like a women or man as possible (I’m using the generic you here.) you exist. You present how you want. How you live as an individual is none of my business. Until it impacts on the rights of others.

But there’s a leap in the thinking next - that this then means one is entitled to access single sex provisions. And that is the leap from individual freedom to impact on others. But taking steps to make oneself look or present differently do not make one cross over into the opposite sex class. You (and again I’m using the generic you, this isn’t aimed at an individual) are still the sex you always have been, and where sex segregation matters, you are still the original sex. Crossing that boundary is crossing from legitimate self express and fulfilment into impinging on others. That’s where your rights stop

Miranda clearly gets this and is capable of separating the two concepts. I suspect a couple of other regular posters on here are too.

Others are not (again, I’m talking in generic terms and pointing no fingers at any individuals on this thread, but this has happened multiple times on other threads) the two concepts are conflated, either deliberately as a debating tactic/wedge argument or as an argument pushed at transpeople themselves to encourage them to not separate the concepts and thus to see any opposition to them entering single sex provision as a threat to the self

And again. Speaking in genetics,
It is jarring to hear men debate among themselves which of them is allowed into women’s spaces because they are most womanly. It would be absurd if it wasnt such a potential threat.

I see so many deliberate twisting of logic in the tra movement. You could write a treatise on the rhetorical techniques and psychological techniques. And I’m sure someone will one day

( if women are still allowed to read and write.)

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