Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

echo I think the pool get a lot if article ideas from this board

Yes @silentcrow both of those. Don’t let anyone have any time to think!

I don't have a Beryl but dear Lord do other people get pissed off and irritated about it.

My DH's family spent the first 5 years of our relationship trying to bring out my inner Beryl through hints, only contacting me, passive aggressive behaviour until they realised it never worked.

My mother and sister outright shame me for not martyring myself and have already told me that I'll have no-one to blame but myself if DH leaves me.

There is a significant social cost to not having a Beryl because a lot of society will judge you as lacking, not against the standards of pulling your weight but against their expectations as you as a wife, mother, and woman.

ArkeNOTen

I think Beryl maybe has been influenced by religion too.
My immediate thought was "protestant work ethic", but I think there's some Puritan in there too. And that old saw "the devil makes work for idle hands". All good ways of keeping women busy and stopping them talking to each other - the gossipy neighbours over the fence are a figure of fun for a reason.

Amusingly because books are pretty much my job, I sometimes feel rather guilty for doing housework when I should be reading...

This article is quite interesting in view of this thread www.the-pool.com/news-views/opinion/2018/44/female-rage-anger-self-help-people-pleasing-mental-health

How do we know Beryl is a patriarchal programming rather than human instinct?

I was more assertive once I had children and certainly learned to care less about upsetting others - wasn't impolite just more assertive.

However, over time - there's been a drip drip effect – things are shoved onto me not always by DH but wider expectations. I bat many back but there are ones that get through.

Language changes – DH having kids is talked about him babysitting or finally getting through to DH that him putting his clothes in washing machine isn’t him doing me a favour.

Current thing I have to watch is being left with coats or equipment – used to child who didn’t want to do something would often prefer to be with me – now they often are old enough or want to join in – not just DH and the kids but wider family are awful for this.

I realised on the beach this summer I was being left on beach with stuff – towels bags purses– only realised when my girls offer to do it so I could go in sea – not my DS or DH – I hadn’t realised I was setting such a poor example till then.

I know this is a bit of a shit analogy. But with my cats I see this. The mum didn't use her litter tray for about 4 days after giving birth. She only ate or drank if I brought it to her. When they got onto solid food she'd beg for it, then sit back in the kitchen step while the kittens chowed away. She is the feline Beryl - however she does hiss and tell them to fuck off if they try to nurse from her now.

But she never stops them barging her out of the way of the food bowl unless she has been out all night and is absolutely starving. It really annoys me the way the kittens act like such entitled little shits pushing her out of the way and she just takes it.

So I believe there may be an element of instinct to Beryl.

kristina- I don’t agree completely about the definition of instinct and I don’t think it’s not the case that on balance this phenomena affects females more than males in all societies.

If it was human instinct then all female in all societies at all times would have it. Which obviously isn’t the case.

How do we know Beryl is a patriarchal programming rather than human instinct?

I think it’s good to look at what children are expected to do for themselves at school and nursery. I have had my kids screaming at me to wipe their bottoms because they don’t want to do it. Do they do that at school? No, therefore I won’t tolerate that behaviour. Likewise you got to teach them to tie their own shoes, cut up their on food, brush their own hair, wash themselves etc. You are not just doing it for you but also themselves in the long run. If you bring your child up to be a Stanley they run the risk of never having a healthy long term relationship. Same for a Beryl too.

I want to flush Julian's head down a toilet (that Anne hasn't cleaned recently).

I agree it takes awareness and conscious deprogamming to get kids to do more for themselves. For me, school has been quite helpful for example, because they are really strict about clearing their trays at lunchtime, it is that much easier to get them to help clear the table at home since it's already been drilled in and they sort of go into autopilot. It's also very cute that my oldest is now able to make/bring me a cup of tea and volunteers to massage my temples if I seem stressed. God children are so much easier than adults aren't they?

Another observation (napping toddler, I am defying Beryl by posting here and not cleaning) - you HAVE to be Beryl for little kids. They literally do need you to wipe their bottoms. As they grow up it is then quite easy to carry on doing everything for them, because of those early years where you had to and because they've grown up expecting it. It is actually quite hard work undoing that.

With DD1 I am in the process of getting her to do more for herself. FWR has been really helpful to me in terms of how to discuss this with her and she's really getting better now. (she's 8). With DD2 I am much more conscious of getting her to 'help' all the time from a young age - even though at this age (pre-2) she is actually hindering me, in the long run I think it's important she sees that housework is not just my job.

Oh it has also struck me that Anne from the Famous Five is Beryl. I really hate how the boys gaslight her into being Beryl - there is a lot of 'How much Anne loves doing all the washing up / housework' and 'she's such a great little housekeeper' - diminishing the value of what she does and gaslighting her into thinking she wants to do all the shitwork at the same time. It's completely enraging. I want to flush Julian's head down a toilet (that Anne hasn't cleaned recently).

i have to say in some ways it's hard not to have someone there at times just to lean on/Sound off with But Mick does Stanley ever really let Beryl do that?

As Echo says Stanley is the guy who comes home and says 'Oh my God, I am knackered, I just can't do anything tonight, I'll probably just go to bed', while failing to asking his partner if she's tired, if there's anything she might need help with

I would say also it's possible to have a marriage which oscillates between Scenarios 1 and 2, and for it to be option 1 for some things but option 2 for others. E.g. men who will help with housework but refuse to see all the admin associated with children as something that needs to happen or is valued in any way (doctors appointments, school meetings, PE kit and all other stuff for school, school uniform etc).

My observation also is that the more Beryl gives, the more Stanley is a dick - nothing will ever be good enough if you don't stand up for yourself. I have one friend in a marriage where she is the perfect housekeeper, wife and mother and works so bloody hard every day doing nothing for herself and her H still complains and says HE feels 'underappreciated' - never EVER asking himself if anyone (particularly him) appreciates what she does (the kids don't of course, but I think kids don't until they reach a certain age). She'll never leave him for various specific reasons I won't go into (although she is very religious and that's part of it). I never really know how to help her though have encouraged her to do things like ask the question whether he thinks she's appreciated when he starts moaning about how underappreciated he is. I really hate him (secretly of course) - he doesn't see what a jewel of a person he has and how badly he treats her. He does occasionally shower her with gifts, but I think she'd appreciate help with the housework a lot more.

Stanley is the guy who comes home and says 'Oh my God, I am knackered, I just can't do anything tonight, I'll probably just go to bed', while failing to asking his partner if she's tired, if there's anything she might need help with, and then stays up until midnight playing games or watching telly while partner runs around putting kids to bed, making dinner and washing up.

I think we need to have a name for the pathological piss-taker who could not exist without Beryl. The name 'Stanley' springs to mind - and you don't need to be male to have one.

In my view Stanley is pretty delusional about his contribution and believes Beryl just loves to do what she does (everything necessary & more) and views her frantic efforts with with a raised eyebrow of amusement. "Ha Ha! look how Beryl creates unnecessary work for herself, she could be relaxing reading the papers with me".

Stanley is happy to take credit for all of Beryl's work - in fact, even though Beryl is constantly scurrying around doing every thing and slightly irritating him as she goes, her work is invisible to Stanley and unappreciated, so he actually takes credit for her work with genuine, but complete misplaced pride.

He is extremely self important in a way that matches Beryl's lack of self-importance.
He hates being disturbed or diverted from doing or thinking about what he deems the important things.

He gets annoyed with Beryl but at the same time is entirely dependent upon her.

I think Beryl maybe has been influenced by religion too.

I’m not religious but I have a good friend who is Catholic and knowledgeable on the history of religion in society in a way I am not. We explained to me a while back how organised religion has affected society - and in particular in regard to using our free time. We feel guilty for doing ‘nothing’ - or nothing that isn’t useful ins some way. Hence o feel guilty if I read a book in the daytime or do something for ‘me’ if there is washing up to be done or shoes to pick up or ... anything really.

This is a big subconscious barrier for women in particular I think. Beryl has definitely been influenced by this.

‘The devil makes work for idle hands’ and all that.

I would say we can only advise on Scenario 1. Nothing is going to change scenario 2 other than your relationship ending.

Indeed. You can't make a selfish, sexist man into a supportive, respectful partner just by trying. Which is why LTB is both one of the most important things women can hear from other women and one of the primary reasons that this site has always been targeted by MRAs of various stripes.

I stopped being Beryl to my husband after he really hurt me. He now doesn't like me very much. I previously thought he was a good guy , he would often point out I was being Beryl to others and would encourage me to stand up for myself. Actually I now think that maybe he thought Beryl should only be reserved for him.

Sad we’re using Beryl as that was my mum’s middle name and she was incredible and a fantastic role model for un-Beryl-like behaviour.

I haven’t read the whole thread but a very important place to start to me is with boundaries. Be very clear about your own boundaries and be aware of them being invaded, if you don’t recognize it immediately, it’s usually the case when you feel uncomfortable or stressed when relating to someone, there’s a good chance they are crossing, or trying to cross a line.

Another thing that comes to mind is to put yourself forward for leadership positions or more responsibility when you would like the role and only self-confidence is stopping you. So much of the time unqualified men will believe they can do something and will put themselves forward, so don’t be afraid to stick out when Beryl would encourage you to blend in and not rock the boat.

“Kindness” often seems to be about having a support role while you tell everyone else how wonderful they are and smooth everyone else’s ego. It’s about anticipating others emotional needs. Be willing to give Beryl the support role while you take a role where you put your own ambitions first. Ambition should not be a dirty word. (To be honest when I reread that “put your own ambitions first” was actually quite a shocking sentence for me! It just seems so selfish and self-centered, but no bloke would EVER think that inappropriate!)

There are 2 separate situations though. Scenario 1 - you turn yourself into Beryl and your partner stands back and let’s you, after all you seem happy and his life is sweet and easy, win-win for him. However one day you wake up and realise you don’t want to be Beryl anymore and he agrees/reluctantly agrees he should do more. He then does more and gets on with it, perhaps moaning how hard it is. Use this as an opportunity to say, “yes dear that’s why I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown drinking wine every night.”

Scenario 2 - your partner expects you to be Beryl. Believes all women have some natural ability and desire to do all menial work. That for some reason owning a penis renders him incapable of boring housework or practising spellings. No amount of reasonable dialogue will change his mind. You stop being Beryl he still won’t care how it affects the kids and you are trapped. You only have 2 options, be Beryl or ditch the baggage.

I would say we can only advise on Scenario 1. Nothing is going to change scenario 2 other than your relationship ending.

My dh used to be married to a Beryl. But it wasn’t me, she left him for someone else. My DH admits he was arrogant, lazy and selfish, that he had a hand in her being unhappy and starting an affair. It wasn’t until he had to look after his son on his weekends and school holidays that he realised what a insufferable arse he’d been. In his defence his mother is a complete Beryl, and he lived at home with his parents until his 30s and she did everything for him, his brother and father. One of the reasons I fell in love with him was because he put his son before work. By then he was divorced, I was a colleague, he was the only one whoever asked to leave early to go to parents evenings etc. Incidentally in city type jobs, this is never seen as a good thing by the boss whether you are male or female.

It is possible for both women and men to change. There is hope!

Sometimes in the interest of being "kind" I find myself holding in and holding back from asserting my opinions, concerns and insights. Because to say certain things and even to openly explore some ideas can be taken as hurtful to others. So I self-censor and find myself raging internally and be-rating myself for a lack of courage. Kindness can hurt, its often depleting and I'd like to deprogram the entire mindset

@Ineedacupofteadesperately - i have to say in some ways it's hard not to have someone there at times just to lean on/Sound off with, but after my split with DS's father I found life a lot easier with regards to housework, and home management. It was like having a non communicative toddler at times.

And I also get two completely free weekends a month to get on top of things, indulge myself and catch up with friends.

Because of this, I have a strong social network, and I can only let myself down. Which rarely happens.

I think the way for me to avoid Beryl is to keep her in the "potential partners" house and never find him. Or her again.

I have thought of some other Ways to overcome Beryl especially with the stress of raising children and all the admin. If you both work why not put the fathers email address down as the main point of contact for all emails/parentmail. Likewise if the father is in an office sat by a phone all day he is the best person to take any phone calls in an emergency.

Agree in principle but there are men out there who would ignore all emails and let the children suffer.

Upthread people talked about lack of consequences but I think there are more consequences these days - more women do divorce because their Hs just won't share the work (often discussed in relationships - many times the women will say that they're still doing everything after the split but how freeing it is for there not to be the resentment bourne of another adult in the house refusing to do their fair share). I think the resentment about this causes among some men has fuelled the rise of MRAs. There is often absolute rage that a woman would kick them out because they're lazy.