Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

What’s the dynamic between *
LikeDust*

Sorry! Bad night

AnyDust all too interesting !

What’s the Male between the adult Male cat and adult female cat ? I feel like we still comparing men to toddlers 😂. I guess maternal instincts are similar across species.

In the bat scenario, I think it’s a fair but lesson, we should learn to never help someone who wouldn’t do the same for us in the hour of need.

I wonder what the children bat/cat expectations from the male population is? Or perhaps a species closer to humans ?

Could it be that by default we are all born entitled (makes sense for survival), but childbearing and childbearing hormones (as well as looking up to our mum from an early age as girls do) curbed our entitlement. While men didn’t get this opportunity and let their entitlement prosper?

Also, a bat world example.
There's a species of bat (I cant remember which) where the mothers have nurseries on the roof of their cave. If a mother didn't get enough food, they'll beg another mother to regurgitate some. Apparently they always remember who gave them food and who didn't. If a mother bat who had refused to regurgitate for her 'sister' in the past begs in her hour of need, she gets firmly blanked.

So doing stuff you don't want to do can have long term survival benefits.

It is only really a problem if there is no give and take. That's what you get in humans - pathological givers and pathological takers coming together in a parasitic relationship.

Another cat world example. Sorry.
Out of the kittens. When they were nursing, the biggest male at birth would climb up and push the other kittens out of the way until he got his chosen nipple. It was pitiful seeing the weakest one getting pushed out of the way and getting no milk. (Without human interference he would have probably died) As time went on the differences between the kittens sizes and weight became increasingly marked.

The biggest one is Stanley. He is utterly entitled and expects to get first dibs at everything. He is also really possessive about the mum and I still sometimes see the mum acquiesce and let him mock nurse on her dry nipples even though he is now twice her size.

So I wonder if being a self-centred prick is partly instinctual as is being the self-sacrificing martyr?

"why can't you be more like Beryl?" sounds like another chapter heading...

I think having basic compassion and empathy and the urge to take care of small vulnerable creatures is a different thing to Beryl. I do not think that men who act like giant toddlers do so because women made them like that - they're adults and are perfectly capable of deciding to act accordingly, be less selfish, etc.

Sorry about my typos...

Angry sorry I didn’t address your point.

So to me, I feel like everyone has or had at some point a mini Beryl.. or perhaps I believe so at this point.

But not everyone has the Beryl which has grown accustomed to slave labour and abuse.

IYSWIM

johnny is love that study too!

Angry totally not! I don’t think I explained myself properly, sorry!

So I am saying I think that there is a possibility that let’s say miniberyl is an instinct, as pp mentioned that everyone has to look after someone more vulnerable.

I wonder whether this instinct is expressed differently in males than in females as it is in the animal kingdom ? We both look out for the vulnerable but we turn selfless as females and the males do something else ? Protective ? Donno..

I do wonder wonder whether our mini baryls was abused ? By men who behave less like adults and more like big babies?

Perhaps we allowed them to be like big babies? We spoilt them and smothered them like we did our own babies ?

Perhaps it’s not that we need to get rid of our beautifully compassionate beryl? But we need to stop perceiving men as babies? And we need to stop being doormats to our own kids?

Perhaps the issue of society - injustice and family breakdowns- has stunted the growth of our inner child and we seem to be only relating to others, even adults, by communicating with their inner child too?

And now I’m gonna spell out something controversial...

Do you think that in our pursuit of rebelling against patriarchy and suffrage, we might’ve unintentionally, become attracted to males who seem least threatening, hence causing some natural selection to men who behave as vulnerable babies ?

In essence, I don’t want to hold my Beryl responsible alone... I don’t want to divorce my Beryl. I feel part of it is beautiful.

I feel like, we might’ve just allowed mini Beryl to be abused and go into slave labor. Its the abuse and slave labor that I want to be angry about, and I don’t want to blame patriarchy for it like a helpless being.. I should’ve known how to stand up for her better too?

Does that make sense ?

Still agreeing with everything you’re saying, Lass. I don’t know anyone IRL who is THAT wrapped up in what people think of them. In fact, the one person I did meet who was like this, was a man - an ex of mine, whose obsession with being perceived as ‘mr middle class and ordinary’ really got up my nose. I used to ask him all the time ‘who’s THEY? Why do you care what THEY think?’ He was incredulous that I had the audacity t continue wearing clothes he didn’t like because in his world, women cared so much about what their partners thought that they’d bear that in mind when getting dressed. Well, not I. I wore than damn cardigan he hated every day to prove a point.

On the instinct thing, I think I mentioned earlier that my natural instinct is to rebel - exactly like the cardigan situation, he said he didn’t like it so I wore it every day because I found it hilarious to see him roll his eyes every time I put it on. Reading these replies I feel like I’ve been socialised backwards somehow. I’d love some sort of scientific study looking into why some women have a Beryl and some don’t

I think most mammals have the instinct to take care of small helpless members of their own species, and even of other species, and the fact that some men fail to do so is down to socialization and the assumption that a woman will do it so they don't have to.

"Dismantling the patriarchy" has such nice a ring to it doesn't it? Pity it's so nebulous and unspecific. Most of the gripes about "Beryl" and wife-work could be resolved by doing something oneself (or more properly not doing). Taking charge of your life , not pandering to a partner. But hey ho , it's the patriarchy, nothing can be done about it.

Am I supposed to be impressed by your boasting Kristina? I have no idea who you are, nor do you know me- bragging about being richer is a bit silly really. Is that a crutch to prop up your self -esteem?

I get the impression that moaning about "Beryl " is actually far more enjoyable than doing anything about getting rid of "Beryl".

No, I hear what you mean about the instincts. The instinct to care is a good one - otherwise babies would never survive. I am naturally caring. The trouble is when that’s all I am expected to be - that’s when caring goes against what I really want. I’m expected to care - to clear up the cat pee and hunt for the mislaid p.e. Kit - I did both this evening and didn’t really want to do either - other members of my family could have - but didn’t. It’s annoying and exhausting.

I have absolutely no instinct to be Beryl, as can be seen by my less than friendly reaction to stepmother's attempts to turn me into one. Am I not human, or just not a woman somehow?

To clarify, I’m not saying we completely submit our willpower to Beryl... but I think going full savage against it might be a type of self harm?!

Angry, I can truly relate.

Dust very interesting about your cat!

I’m gonna be a devils advocate and throw this in there :

• if Beryl was our instinct, or perhaps an exaggerated phenomena facilitated by our instinct, wouldn’t it be a bit oppressive if we live a life forcing ourselves to go against nature and “expecting” the upcoming generation of girls to not listen o their instincts?

Are we setting new expectations and standards for ourselves based on reacting to current patriarchy, rather than focusing on nurturing our own strength and working with our instincts?

Isn’t happiness when you align your conscience with your day to day achievements?

Yes we might achieve a better sense of justice in relationships, but would we be losing sight of who we really see ourselves to be ?

Am sorry I know this isn’t what everyone wants to hear, but I believe a lot of us are thinkng this at the back of our minds so I’d get the elephant in the room out of the way and discuss it.

Well I personally don’t care what they think Lass, because I’m posher and richer than you . And I have a cleaner so they judge her and not me .

But I understand that many other women do care. I have a tiny bit of insight into the lives of women who are not like me or my neighbours.

And I know it doesn’t really help to say “ well I don’t care about that so you shouldn’t either”.

And yes I agree - feminism has a long way to go before women have achieved equality and we have dismantled the patriarchy.

But feminists did campaign so that women like you could become solicitors. Here is information about the process of women in the legal profession since 1919

first100years.org.uk/digital-museum/timeline/

The main "why can't you be more like Beryl?" person in my life is my stepmother. This has resulted in my having a rather distant relationship with her, which frustrates my dad, but because I don't have a Beryl I see that as his issue to manage rather than mine. First time they came to our house I got a "Stepmother was very disappointed in aspects A and B of your domestic arrangements" letter from my dad and we had a fairly epic argument about it, with him going "well your mother brought you up to do X and Y" and me going "actually my mother very deliberately did not bring me up to feel like the world would end if my coffee table wasn't polished daily, and let's have a chat about how unreasonable your expectations of her were".

And then there's the auntie who thinks that my not changing my name when I got married is deeply hurtful to DH and he must be so sad every time I get anything in the post that's not addressed to "Mrs His Name" (he's not, doesn't care). The social dynamics of how women attempt to enforce patriarchal bollocks on each other and why are fascinating in a grim sort of way.

Having paid cleaners has nothing to do with it. Why would you care what the neighbours think? Are you living in Eastenders or Coronation Street?

Feminism hasn't achieved very much if women are measuring their sense of worth by whether or not their neighbours approve of their housekeeping.

That's a really interesting article about female anger. As I have become more feminist I have started to notice how disempowered some of my female patients are (GP) . They are often struggling because they are trying to manage far too much with too little support but they struggle to recognise that. Beryl is so strong in many cases that they don't see that their partners are Stanley's.

Interesting that some PPs are saying that Beryl has made them depressed. I fairly often think this with patients and increasingly try to pick up on it with them. I'd like to prescribe feminism but lots of them already look at me like I have 2 heads when I suggest that their partner needs to step up! I wonder if PPs feel that a GP picking up on it would have been helpful or whether you needed to wait for your personal epiphany?

Anecdotally I certainly see the link with some chronic pain as well as mental health problems.

I think it’s different if you have paid cleaning staff at home Lass.

@LassWiADelicateAir it's hard to see and get it when you haven't lived/grown surrounded by a "what will the neighbours think" mentality. When reputation must be protected at all costs. When what others think/say about you gives you a sense or pride and achievement. When arguments are kept quiet because of the neighbours,but in front of the kids it's fine. When opinion and reputation is more important than safeguarding.
When no matter who you are,what you do,what you achieved is reduced to what others think of you.

And it's fucking hard(and sometimes painful) to not give a shit and follow your own path when surrounded/raised by people like that.

Pa comments usually from other women after they come into my house.

I sometimes feel the mn cuteseyfied term 'judgy' belies an ugly instinct to turn women into anxious, scurrying Beryls. Who the fuck does care about toilet brushes or teatowels enough to make impassioned posts on MN about it? Those posters spread paranoia complexes like noxious gas. Do they really care that much?

My advice would be to avoid allowing passive aggressive arseholes into your home.

There is a significant social cost to not having a Beryl because a lot of society will judge you as lacking, not against the standards of pulling your weight but against their expectations as you as a wife, mother, and woman

Who exactly is doing this judging? And unless your standards are so low you come to the attention of social services what are they going to do about it?

I'm generally unconvinced by claims by feminists that "society expects this and society expects that of women".

I don't think society does. I think most women are capable of thinking sod that I'm doing/ not doing whatever and getting on with their lives.I don't know anyone in real life who spends as much time as the average feminist seems to do fretting about whether or not she is meeting some nebulous standard.

So who exactly is this "society" standing in judgement of you and deciding you don't meet "their expectations"? You do realise nobody actually cares?

There is a significant social cost to not having a Beryl because a lot of society will judge you as lacking, not against the standards of pulling your weight but against their expectations as you as a wife, mother, and woman.

Yes - my Beryl only started caring about housework more than bare minimum that DH continues to cares thanks to Pa comments usually from other women after they come into my house.

There have been time I’ve ended so anxious that I’ve ended up exhausted and resentful before the event we are hosting.