Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Perhaps there is some merit to the phrase “being cruel to be kind”

That's definitely a phrase that could come in handy.

I used to be a people pleaser. Over the last 8-10 uears I’ve been gradually depriving Beryl of oxygen. Anxiety provoking situations (eg newjob) occasionally give her a breather and room to grow, but less so now.

All of my immediate family when I was growing up saw me as their personal support and counselling service. My emotional support needs did not even factor into their thinking. Growing up that way definitely colours your approach.

Part of my ‘recovery’ was managing a horrendously selfish woman who slacked off at every turn and was happy to take credit for orhers’ work. Like reverse “What would Jesus do?” I started asking myself “would M do unpaid overtime this weekend to get x done, or would she get the team to do it this week instead?” Stay late, or leave on time like M tonight? God I loathed managing her, but she was a case study in not giving a fuck. Utterly shameless. With hindsight, I learned so much from her. It opened my eyes. Once that kind of take take take is seen, it can’t be unseen. I also stopped martyring myself to family harmony - up til then the caring and support had been 90%+ me to them.

My mum was, in many ways, a pretty shite mother, she yelled a lot, she loved running me down (calling me stupid, lazy etc when I really wasn't), sarcastic, mean and neglectful (not washing my clothes when I had peed myself, withholding meals etc).

However, I will be forever grateful that she never ever told me I needed to be kind to other people. My mother loathes and detests everyone on this planet and had no qualms telling me that I should do the same. As a result, my first inclination is to be extremely wary of most people. As such, I have never thought twice about saying no to things I don't want to do, telling people when they are being dickheads, standing up to shitty boyfriends/friends, walking away from assholes or whacking creepy gropers in clubs in their stupid ugly faces. I had some problems standing up to authority figures (bosses, teachers) when I was younger, but out of fear, not kindness but not these days.

As an example, I remember some guys were talking to my friends in the pub one night. These guys seemed extremely boring and kind of creepy, but my friends seemed to be laughing and having a good time so I left them to it. After chatting to them for two or more hours, my friends came over to me and said 'omg those guys are awful, but we couldn't get away from them.' In those circumstances, I don't think twice about telling such guys to leave me alone, and if they won't, to get the bar staff to throw them out. But so often, my friends will just put up with it and even tell me off for being rude if I ask them to leave us alone. I don't get it. THEY'RE the ones being rude by not leaving me alone when I request it so I don't really get why my friends are so worried about appearing rude.

While out and out misanthropy is not great either and I've had to learn to not despise everyone I meet on sight, I am so glad I was never a kind/nice/lovely person who hurts herself to avoid hurting other people.

For my troubles, yes, I get called intimidating, a bitch, terrifying, full of myself, entitled, up myself, a snob and so on. At times, I kind of believed maybe I was those things and wondered if I should be nicer - social pressure is a very hard thing to avoid. But I was told by a therapist that I actually just have extremely healthy boundaries and self-respect. There is also the possibility I have autism (I was told by the same therapist that I should go for tests) so maybe that's part of it - I don't see why I should be kind or polite to people who are not kind or polite to me, and I don't see why I shouldn't just tell the truth (within limits, of course.)

I don't know how to teach other people to be like this, however. I think the main thing for me is just that I refuse to be polite to anyone who is not polite to me.

This thread has been derailed.

It's about deprogramming oneself from self-harming kindness and exploring that idea, not for prescribing/judging how labour should be divided in other people's homes.

The labour split is sort of relevant because how it can affect the respect/status/value balance in a relationship and leave one person feeling like shit, but the relevance ends there.

Maybe this derailment is best ignored? There is so much more to this phenomenon than division of labour- it even affects women's lack of entitlement to make art ffs.

And what exactly has the SAHM been doing all day? Particularly if the children are school age?

Of course parenting should be shared but to suggest that someone who has been at work all day should delay their return home and go and do shopping, which the other party has had all day today is ridiculously unfair.

I think you are all asking the wrong question.

I think you should be asking why wouldn’t the man come home and get shopping on the way back/cook family dinner/put his children to bed after baths and a story/stick the washing on/iron his own shirt for the next day/make his&kids pack ups or whatever share of the family work he took part in that evening. If he was single he would have to take care of himself/his home/kids if with him, so why not if part of a team? Kids need parented by both parents not just one, and if mums done it all day why would he not want to step in and do some once back in the home? Equally it’s his home so why would he not want to invest his time in caring for it and taking pride in its appearance. And why would he not want to put some time and effort in contributing to his relationship by picking up stuff for dinner, planning and cooking the dinner for his partner? Not all of it every night of course, but why would a man not want to invest his time and effort and emotional energy into his home, relationship and children?

It’s not about the investment that men often don’t put in verses how much emotional investment and emotional labour women shoulder within the relationship. It’s about that power balance and about it not being ok for men to not be equally invested in the home, relationship and children they took equal part in creating. If a man doesn’t want to put in equal effort then us women end up carrying that burden alone. And it’s lonely. And not a healthy example for girls or boys to see as ok.

No you didn't. And I get where you're coming from. I mean,if you're home anyways there's no logic in waiting until 6 pm for your partner to do the breakfast dishes.

But experience (either lived or witnessed) showed us that most people do mean EVERYTHING. I'm always baffled when my friend's husbands moan about x or y not being done, or that the house is spotless but they missed a rolled up nappy behind the door, or the inquisition of what exactly have they done that day, or the refusal to do anything except going to work etc.

The problem becomes when they're expected to do everything. And that applied both to SAHM and working mums

I didn't say they should do everything. I'm however surprised at the outrage which is often expressed on here at the idea that SAHMS, paticularly those with children, might be expected to do house work whilst their partners are out working.

For example the shocked emoji face from AAA. What is so unreasonable about it? It is extremely unreasonable for the person at home to expect the other party to pitch in on house work after work if there was time and opportunities for the SAHMS to do it.

Yeah... no. Because I don't want to.DH drives and I don't. So food shop is delivered,or if we need bits during the week then he can pick them up on his way home. Because he's already out.
Also you'd be hard pressed to find women that don't do "something " either with kids at home or not. The problem becomes when they're expected to do everything. And that applied both to SAHM and working mums.

See, this is the point at which you tell Beryl to sod off. Is your husband incapable of picking up some shopping on his way home from work? I very much doubt it

The SAHM could pick up some shopping on the way to or back from school or nursery drop off /collection. Children don't need to be looked after by an SAHM when they are in school. They could even do some shopping with the children.

If a couple have arranged their lives that one works out of the home and one doesn't it is not in the least bit unreasonable to expect the one at home might do some shopping or housework in the hours 9-5.

Likewise if you are a sahm and you don’t have little babies anymore you should really be the one doing the lions share of housework/finances/shopping etc.

See, this is the point at which you tell Beryl to sod off. Is your husband incapable of picking up some shopping on his way home from work? I very much doubt it.

Small children need taking care of. Adult men should be able to take care of themselves.

for all you had to endure.

it’s not exclusive to if parents treated kids with value or not, I was on the opposite end of that spectrum and still I didn’t become a people pleaser.

I don't think there is a one size fits all. I have just noticed the Beryl come out in a lot of women and some men where the parenting is negligent eg there's a bereavement, alcoholism, disruption, mental illness, NPD, acrimonious divorce where the adults aren't really present and coping and the kids are forced to become little adults ahead of their time to manage things their parents aren't doing, or they learn to completely suppress their own needs and not be an inconvenience to their parents who would tell them they are selfish for speaking up.

At the moment I'm thinking of a mega- Beryl whose parents were hippy stoners with no money and she was born in a commune. The dad left early and now lives in supported housing with a mental illness, her mum would take in people with mental illness as lodgers for extra income, but it was not a cosy, safe situation for a little girl to grow up in.

Everything is such a stress for her now and she plans everything out to the last detail, but has a terrible habit of going out of her way to help every waif and stray at massive cost to her own well-being. Poor thing. I don't think she is going to get over it all any time soon.

I’m on page 5 - like dust, i don’t fit in your theory, I had a very abusive up brining, brought about by my mother who was my primary and openly care giver, but involveda great deal of sexual abuse by men she handed me to as well as the emotional abuse and gas lighting she adored making me the victim of.

I’m not to sure where I fit in terms of self esteem problems. I’m not sure I like the term self esteem. I prefer self worth, as in I think I have value and deserve kindness from myself and others even if I’m good at nothing and have zero going for me. I don’t feel my sense of self should rest on self esteem as it’s too unstable, if it does all the things I am good at may go away (if a runner bases self esteem on being a good runner what happens when she looses her legs??) but anyways I think I have a reasonable sense of self. My self worth is somewhat of a battle, and certainly I came out of childhood with none. But I’m a survivor even though I never feel that way and I think I survived by being selfish. So I can wobble in self worth yet I still will put myself first as that’s how I found a way to survive the extreme abuse I suffered.

As a little kid, when I lived with my life on the line each day, it’s automatic to extend compassion to the abusers, because understanding them and finding a way to feel for them is what helps the child victim stay alive. I guess as an adult I consciously chose to take that compassion back and extend it only to me, to the child I was and to the suffering I was carrying. No one else was going to give me that compassion, and I would have drowned if I didn’t. The need to survive meant I became selfish. So it’s not exclusive to if parents treated kids with value or not, I was on the opposite end of that spectrum and still I didn’t become a people pleaser. I’m not saying I don’t have parts of me that are people pleasers, but over all I’m rather selfish. Even the idea of giving best food to yourself instead struck me as funny as I do that automatically.

I think I’m a pretty selfish entitled person in general. My dh, friends and family think otherwise, but it’s easier to be generous and kind when it’s on my terms and when I can manage.

I am a mother of girls so this perhaps makes me feel this is important but I love that they see that dh does much more for me than I do for him, more house work/cooking/ as well as actual care- making tea, buying me presents etc. (He does this because I have disabilities and because I care for girls who have complex disabilities, not an unequal relationship just our balance that works for our family). But I like my daughters see a man doing so much of ‘women’s work’ (ontop of his ‘man’s work’ outside the home). We also use a male cleaner, male tutor and male gardener.

I’m not too sure it this applies to your question, but while these weren’t intensional decisions at the time I think we continue employing these men in caring roles to show our daughters that men can take on the burden that’s put on women also.

I think in terms of arguing the self id debate I find using the expected kindness can be an advantage- pointing out self id won’t meet transsexuals needs -no longer medical issue then there won’t be medical treatment, the likes of prostrate cancer getting lost while smear tests are sent out for tw, and self id would remove grc from protected group presumably.

I think in general I try not to give way to men, to compensate or balance out women doing so in the way we are socialised to. But I guess that’s dependant on safety.

This is a great thread idea op.

you should really be the one doing the lions share of housework/finances/shopping etc. This is definitely Beryl speaking. Says who?

I think there is a place for Beryl-lite. The first Beryl if you like. She's there to make sure you keep your baby alive, she's the momma bear that keeps younglings safe. But she's been abused and she's become a monster as a result. She's scared and worn out from years of having more and more work put on her.
Love this. Bang on the money. Beryl has been exploited and is suffering traumatic bonding. She needs TLC and rehabilitation, not ostracising.

There's a big difference between being Beryl for a helpless newborn / toddler (who literally cannot wipe their own bottoms) and being Beryl for a healthy adult man(-child) who is perfectly capable of doing shit work but decides that it is beneath them and expects a woman (by virtue of being a woman) to do it for them.

This is obvious, of course, but it's quite interesting how many times it seems to be expected of the woman that it's their job to do the shit work and how often it somehow ISN'T obvious in real life. How a woman pointing this out is a 'nag'. The man (otherwise a leader of industry) somehow cannot see that sheets need to be changed and toilets scrubbed, and particularly that this needs to happen MORE and MORE OFTEN once kids come into the equation.

Also, very annoying when the man then complains if things aren't pristine (the answer of course is 'do it yourself if you don't like it' but this leads to arguments and sometimes if you're a very tired Beryl it seems like too much extra effort).

I have a friend whose husband literally is Stanley - gets home from a nice rewarding job which he likes, is paid well for, and is given lots of ego boosting praise for, puts his feet up while his wife simultaneously looks after kids and cooks dinner (she works too) and does not offer to help in any way. Claims she is 'making him look bad' if she praises her DC for clearing the table (because he hasn't cleared the table). Unbelievable how otherwise intelligent men can somehow convince themselves they are worth having a servant at their wife's expense and don't see their wife's right to be a human being with free time.

I fail to see how this man shows any love to this wonderful woman at all in his actions. Obviously I don't know the ins and outs of their relationship but it seems a pretty bleak place to be for her.

I don't see Beryl as kindness and sunshine and what not. That's me..helping out a friend,a coworker,a stranger etc. because I want to . Beryl is the extra..the pressure of doing even more,the expectation to say yes,the piling of even more responsibilities on an already full plate,being accommodating or respectful to people that don't deserve it, feeling bad when work is fine,kids are fine house is fine but dinner is from the freezer(or whatever other combination). Beryl is a demanding bitch with unachievable standards.

My Beryl is spending a lot of time on MN which has been good for her

Oh! Angels that makes sense as a description, actually - Beryl is mama bear, and that's fine, but if she's stuck in a cage (of expectations) and prodded with sticks (comments and pass-ag family), then of course she's going to turn mean and twisted.

Alice for the similar experience. I find I have real problems with authority figures now - having broken the hold of bowing to it, I feel like I do a lot of challenging.

Purple It seems less common - Beryl seems to come out for men in the majority; but as you can see I had issues with medical authorities, some people find it's female relatives...I don't see why it couldn't manifest for female groups too. It might be worth you looking back through your childhood friendship groups to see if there was a domineering girl/group that demanded or enforced certain behaviours. Maybe you had a charismatic "mean girl" in your life?

I'm not sure either. I'm not sure Beryl isn't doing harm. I think Beryl may well be setting a poor example to little Beryl and facilitating undesirable behaviour in little Stanley.

Hmm, I’m not sure about that ILoveHumanity. I think a bit of self centred entitlement is healthy and good in everyone. Not so much that you’re stabbing people in the back but enough that you aren’t afraid to say no, be spontaneous, do things even though others might not like it or agree, rest when you need to, chase your ambitions, stop caring what people think. I’m still following this thread, and I’ve come to another conclusion, perhaps my complete lack of any beryl-like tendencies is down to my cynicism around human nature. I’m a natural born pessimist, even as a four year old I couldn’t stand other kids and found them all annoying. I don’t think anyone can ever be trusted 100%, and my life motto is ‘expect nothing and you’ll never be disappointed’. My incredibly low expectations of humanity don’t exactly compel me to put others before myself and fill the world with fluffiness and nurturing

At the end of the day, Beryl is a fellow female and shouldn’t be told what or what not to do as long as it doesn’t harm others.

As long as she isn’t dragging me down with her. As long as she respects me... as long as she doesn’t steal from me to give to others.

I feel psychotic talking about Beryl now haha 😂

Purple I would teach my Beryl to be herself and not be shaped by other people’s judgement. I’d teach her to not be motivated by fear, but rather by conviction.