Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

LikeDust how’s your Beryl getting on in the school of Dust?

The wording in the opening post is flawed.

Beryl's behaviour isn't kindness. Quite the opposite. It certainly isn't a kindness to her female children for whom she is setting a terribly example; nor for her male children for whom she is normalising this behaviour as to what is expected in a relationship.

For herself, it may be a sort of kindness since being the person who is responsible for everything presumably is a boost to her sense of worth.

yesterday I learnt a way to be kind but not a push over and it felt really good.

I had a casual friend who couldn’t pay for my services as agreed and I informed them that I can lower the price for them but that they would have to do me a favour (I specified) in return or compromise on some of their standards. I think they were shocked because they assumed I would just offer the same thing for the lower price.

Usually I would’ve just felt sorry for them and did as they please.

I feel mean while I type this, but I have told myself I will treat everyone with caution at this stage since I’m known to bend over backwards and so it’s almost “expected” by the best of people. Especially if they’re the demanding type who don’t take my circumstances into consideration. And that if I find that they’re the real kind and gentle souls who would stick with me through thick and thin then I would give more and more.

dust well if you want to start deprogramming yourself, 'not making PA comments, but just coming out with what you want to say' sounds like a pretty good way to start.

Maybe start a new thread, LikeDust, explicitly labelled as for supportive discussion? Since apparently there's going to be no saving this one.

Thank you for your opinon Hisaishi i generally agree with you but my opinion is that it depends on the poster and their motivation for being on a thread.

like honestly, I think it's better to just engage directly with posters instead of making veiled comments.

It saves confusion.

It's been really interesting hearing different takes on this, different experiences and how the inner Beryl is formed or not and discussing ways to overcome.

However telling other posters how they should be living their lives is not interesting, making facile comments is not interesting, having arguments for the sake of it is not interesting. A case of empty vessels I think.

When two such posters who find amusement in making sport of all the other posters (extremely inappropriately, since many of whom have shared pretty personal stuff) then start bolstering each other up at everyone else's expense, that is the back-patting I'm referring to.

t's obvious that lass/jonny squats this thread to derail it in order to prevent feminist consciousness-raising/healing on FWR

Given some of the posts on this thread "feminist concious raising" has been a miserable failure. Even on here there are posters desperately trying to cling on to their martyrdom.

ali well I personally haven't seen that, although tbh I have just skipped some of the wordier posts.

Hisaishi it’s a bit frustrating when people discuss their lived experience and other posters explain to them how they are wrong. Repeatedly.

"Why are these people who cannot identify or empathise with the purposes of this thread taking up space and patting each other on the back in their being unwarrantedly judgemental about people who do actually get it? "

Is it backpatting to have a different opinion or experience? Does it say somewhere in the OP that we are only allowed on this thread if we are all like this? I haven't seen any judging. I have only seen people offer their experience. In fact, I'm growing to hate the word 'judge'. You can't offer a fucking opinion on anything these days without being accused of 'judging'.

It is obviously something that is a massive issue for the vast majority of women and so is of interest to most of us. I, for one, would love to be able to help other women give less of a fuck about being kind.

I’ve been pondering Happyinheels Thoughts

something that struck a chord with me was the poster near the start of the thread who said about giving yourself the nice cut of meat or the better looking veg (words to that effect)! I've always given myself the worst portion 😂

I think this goes to the heart of it. Once you have been taught that something is the “correct” form of conduct, it’s difficult to behave differently. It feels wrong to take the crispiest roast potato, you feel guilty so don’t enjoy it , and fear someone might be watching and judging.

In reality, people who were not taught Beryl code probably have no clue about the inner turmoil of the Berylled. They dont judge because they don’t have the same complicated set of rules in their heads and so no offence is caused.

Through therapy, I learned that a lot of my can’t/won’t/shouldn’t s were self imposed, but came from incredibly judgemental and rule based foundations. To move forward - and I’m still a work in progress - I’m learning to be less judgemental of others as well of myself.

Although i do understand that the subject matter meanders so other 'points' may arise

Ive not been on this thread as i seem to have killed any beryl i may have had and so i didnt feel that most of the thread would apply to me however interesting the subject

So i agree with likedust on this one

It's obvious that lass/jonny squats this thread to derail it in order to prevent feminist consciousness-raising/healing on FWR.

It's clear this username pairing wants every thread to be a tedious as getting cornered by tedious men playing 'devil''s advocate' in a pub when women just want to chat to each other.

Dont be Beryl. Ignore. Please.

Mmmmmmmmmrrrrrrrraaa

The great thing about the internet is that it’s not confined only to people who agree with each other... if you’re just looking for validation perhaps a public forum isn’t the place to do it

Why are these people who cannot identify or empathise with the purposes of this thread taking up space and patting each other on the back in their being unwarrantedly judgemental about people who do actually get it?

Odd way to get your kicks.

I personally couldn't give a fuck about what these two judge other people should do with their lives. It's not interesting or adding anything. It's like an irritating white noise.

Well, my results and work and the award nomination I got the company would suggest otherwise. I love my work, I just hate anything remotely domestic

There are plenty of lazy managers in the world.

Yet again Lass I agree. I don’t want kids, but I’ve always said that if I did, I’d want to be the working partner and the dad would SAH. Damn right I’d expect him to do the bulk of domestic work during the day - I wouldn’t expect my lunches made or work clothes pressed, but general house upkeep, yes. I’d also insist he went back to work when they went to school because I wouldn’t want to fund another adult capable of working. Anyway, beside the point. I absolutely would question and judge a stay at home dad who seemed to do nothing all day, or a dad who did zero housework and left it all to the wife, for the poster who said it’s only women who are judged. On the topic of judging other women, and that being some by product of Beryl, I actually find the women I tend to judge and be irritated by the most are the doormat people pleaser types. When friends with this kind of nature have asked me for advice, I’ve found myself getting quite irate and saying ‘just say no for god’s sake, stop being wet!’

And to the poster with the lazy colleague - I’m also domestically crap and hate cleaning, my mum visits me and cleans (I don’t ask her to, she just visits and can’t stand mess so I let her crack on) and I take my laundry back to my parents when I can’t be arsed to do it because it’s built up. Does that mean I have lazy entitled man socialisation? I’m not lazy at work, I actually manage a team!

I have said nothing which devalues the importance of child rearing. Quite the contrary actually. As part of that contract the person at home will be doing it during the day. I don't agree with the proposition that the person at work should come home and then relieve the SAHM. If there is still work to do it should be shared- with the huge proviso that if the work is say sticking washing in a machine, which the sah could easily have done during the day, they should do so.

I did not say "all the housework" i have pointed that out to you repeatedly

You really are missing the point, that so many have stated clearly, it’s your assumption that whoever is sah means their ‘contract’ includes all the house work is what is misogynistic. And massively dismissing the importance of child rearing.