Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Woah... I was going to post something similar for a thread on Fwr this afternoon.

My question was: how do you junk your gender programming?

Embarrassingly, it's taken me until my early 40s to realise my gender programming has pretty much screwed up my life. It's kept me stuck, unable to move forward with what I really want to do.

I made the decision last night to refer to the gender programming in my life as "Beryl." I have this idea that if I label the behaviours as an alien persona, I can somehow divorce them from myself.

For me, Beryl is most obvious when it comes to priorities: the housework being placed above developing my own skills and knowledge, for example. She pretty much drives all the practical "shoulds" in my life.

I hate her and want to destroy her. Yes, it's that bad. I think she's influenced a frightening number of decisions in my life, which, of course, meant I ended up with Beryl's life, rather than mine, which just entrenched her more.

Unpicking it and eradicating her influence is going to be hard going. So much of it is just automatic. It's not so much kindness with me as this odd sense of my role to be a supporting character in other people's lives.

Have you heard that "cheer leader" song that's popular at the moment? That just exemplifies the whole fucking problem: females as 24/7 personal assistants to lily livered males.

Ah sorry mickhucknall I hear where you're coming from a family member is currently going through a divorce. The wife refused a $4mil settlement (very generous). Turning the youngest DS against him, the older DS (at UNI) on side with Dad.

Basically even women the wife has known since high school are not supporting her. Sometimes women can be greedy. It's torn our family apart, a nasty divorce affects much more than the couple involved.

Great thread idea. Will be back....

I think there are three stages to the deprogramming and they're all quite hard work. As pp have said, it's all in the detail, the tiny actions and assumptions nobody even notices. So first we have to notice when it happens, even though most of the time it will be something really slight and in the scheme of things unimportant. Secondly, we have to make a commitment to stop allowing it, even though 'making a fuss' will initially be very uncomfortable. And thirdly we need to learn a language of refusal, which might need some practice before we can use it on the fly.

When you stop being ‘nice’ they get so angry.

Watching this thread as I could do with some tips.

I'm very assertive at home with dh but even with close family and friends I allow people to wall all over me for fear of upsetting people.

Definitely a skill I'd like to acquire for both me and my young dd, to not allow yourself to be a doormat

The older I get the more I think that all girls should be taught by nuns, who don't give a fuck about men's opinions
I was taught by nuns in junior school, and frankly it was all about putting yourself absolutely last. And the priest was god. This was more than 40 years ago though.

Oh yes.
I am heading towards 50 and I am STILL learning how to do this.

I think it is definitely worth remembering that sometimes 'kind' means putting a wounded animal down. It's not at all a cosy, wimpy, weak thing to do. It is a strength when properly applied. So if someone is attempting to coerce you into something that will require quiet compliance and they are using the term 'kind' to indicate that compliance, it's probably helpful to have an image of a deathly wounded pigeon that needs to be swiftly mercy killed in your head.

Also, that phrase that came up in the Rachel McKinnon is a homophobic creep thread 'cope with' - coping is never optimum. Coping is just getting by, and to tell someone they will 'cope' is often hugely dismissive and uncompassionate. Sometimes we have to cope, that is just life. But it shouldn't be a default life position.

And finally, one thing I am really trying to absorb is that if I wouldn't accept that something was a good thing if it happened to a female friend, then I shouldn't acquiesce to it happening to me.

Here to learn

Great idea for a thread arran

Following.

And some key relevant points from Valentine's wonderful stickied post on the relationships board:

Every person deserves to have a relationship where they are treated with respect, love and equality. (Even the ones with XX chromosomes)

There is never an excuse for verbal, physical or financial abuse.

If your partner treats you like shit, it is their fault. It is not because of something you have done.

You can't change an abusive man by being 'better' or sticking by him where others haven't, or by changing yourself.

Most people have happy relationships, where disagreements happen and are resolved without resorting to shouting, name calling or violence or screwing someone else.

Most people's partners are happy for them to pursue their own friendships and interests, work and education, have access to money, make decisions.

Nobody should live their life in fear of angering their partner, or skirting round issues that might upset him. Or put up with cheating and lying for fear of rocking the boat.

If you have been in more than one abusive relationship, (or get easily sucked in by ideological narrative on why your feelings and rights should be subordinate to you taking care of the needs of someone with a penis)seek some counselling, you may be co-dependant, or you may be modelling relationships on a warped template, perhaps from childhood.

There is never a reason to stay with an abusive man. He won't kill himself if you leave him (or refuse to agree with him, or attend meetings to discuss the law), and yes, people will believe you.

I'll add one more to that: possession of a penis and identity politics is not an excuse to avoid taking responsibility for oneself and one's behaviour. Possession of a vagina is not a designated responsibility to carry the responsibility of anyone who tries to hand it to you.

Juells - maybe nuns from the Pussy Church?

I would love to see this exist.

Its so subconsciously ingrained. I was watching a reception class lining up in the playground and noticed a number of boys walk to the front or push in where they wanted, and the girls who were displaced just silently got out of their way without protest. The staff didn't even see it, never mind challenge it. Already there, at four years old.

I've seen this referred to elsewhere as pathological altruism.

I like that description. For me, the solution was actually reading books by hardline libertarians and individualists. I don't agree with everything they say, but the notion that someone could unapologetically say that it's okay to put yourself and your own needs and wellbeing first was revolutionary for me.

I had a combination of horrifically low self-esteem and an 'always put others before yourself' attitude, along with the idea that it was unforgivable not to 'be nice' and please others. Now I'm a lot more balanced, I think.

Practically, the first thing I started doing was not moving over and walking in the road when groups of people (usually men) were walking alongside each other in the opposite direction and taking up the entire pavement. Such a small thing, but I really had to tell myself that I deserved to take up space in the world just as much as they did.

Radical feminism - reading and hearing other women speak out without trying to be as inoffensive as possible - is good de-programming. But it can be very ingrained in us so it's good to think about this issue specifically. Radfems can also be way too nice when it's not deserved, after all it's how we were raised to be as girls.

Kindness in itself is not a weakness. In itself it is a good thing.

What is wrong is thinking that it is acceptable to allow yourself to be hurt as a result. By being kind to the point of self harm You are essentially saying your self worth is less than someone else’s. And I think women are trained to believe that.

Kind isn’t the same as stupid. ...I suspect that came from mother.

Short term kindness may also be long term neglect - Giving kids whatever they ask for for example. Or enabling men to be selfish entitled and lacking the human understanding that is needed to build a strong and satisfying relationships.

Perhaps there is some merit to the phrase “being cruel to be kind”. Be more aware. Think will this short term kindness do long term harm?

The older I get the more I think that all girls should be taught by nuns, who don't give a fuck about men's opinions In the absence of nuns, TERFs would be a good substitute.

for Mick.

Oh wasn’t getting at you mick
What a horrible man he sounds
💪🍺💐💐

Mick

The most important thing I have ever learned is that NO is a complete sentence. It does not require explanation or justification (and stopping yourself doing that to be "nice" is really hard).