Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

I would also add that I’ve always found it much, much harder to stand up to or disagree with other women than I have men. I’m really wondering after reading this where I got these traits from

This is very interesting reading for me, and - apologies in advance if this comes across as smug or self satisfied, it’s not my intention - I really don’t recognise this pathological altruism or finding the notion of individualism revolutionary, or consistently putting myself last, in myself. It’s never occurred to me NOT to be individualistic and pursue my own interests before considering anyone else. I do genuinely wonder how I seem to have bypassed something that’s so widespread? To give examples, I consistently defied my parents when they tried to advise me on which school topics to take (people telling me what to do has always made me want to do the opposite just to make a point, childish I know), didn’t listen when they told me it might not be wise to move to a different city with no job, I did it anyway and secured a job within a week, when I was self employed I always said no to sharing my contacts because I didn’t want to create competition for myself, I have no qualms in telling my current (male and useless) boss when I disagree with him, I was elbowed in the street by a man the other day and was so incensed I ran after him and shouted at him to tell him what a rude and aggressive c*nt he was. I would find it a real effort to be a submissive people pleaser, it just isn’t in my nature and never has been.

That said, I do have a bad track record of not walking away from bad men (never physically abusive, but certainly emotionally in some cases and liars). But even in those situations I always voiced everything I was unhappy with, I feel like I hung on in there too long because I was hoping they’d take on board how their behaviour upset me and change it. They didn’t. I feel that’s possibly a self esteem issue, that dumping them meant I had to accept I wasn’t “good enough” for them to change for. I also find my (female) housemate quite domineering and often just resignedly agree with her to keep the peace because I don’t want a confrontation, and that really annoys me because it makes me feel weak. But that is pretty much the only example I can think of. I find it genuinely surprising how many women feel socialised to put themselves last

I think women-only spaces and conversations are the best way for individual women to find their individual voices. Agreed. Perhaps most of us have had the experience of being in a group of only women feminists, where consistently one of the topics is examples and discussion of submissiveness vs. genuine empowerment, and then having even one male be allowed to join.

All of a sudden, first one woman and then another start hedging their speech, toning down the outrage at some bit of sexism, in order to spare the man's feelings. The groups ALWAYS lose their potency and focus, cos now we have to "remember the men, dear, they have needs too". And pretty soon it's all about the men and "women can be awful too" and then some women feel the need to burn those exampled women at the stake, in order to "balance out" their former rage at men being sexist.

But the two demographics aren't equal, or treated equally, that's the whole point, that it's okay to angry at systematic discrimination. Women do not find that voice very often outside woman-only space. And patriarchy knows this, that's why some men are always trying to intrude.

One aspect of this that I have struggled with is: adapting to different communication styles. I grew up on the east coast USA and moved to the west coast many years ago. Everyone here is much milder and hesitant and PC. I have always tried to be kind, but some people think that speaking directly, asserting boundaries, pointing out sexism, using sarcastic humor, interrupting, etc is rude or unkind. I have been schooled on this,, but to be honest a lot of people find it refreshing if not endearing. I have toned it down ALOT and have learned how to self-censor, but I'm just now thinking of it as self harm. rather than the inverse (not being "kind" has harmed me)
Great conversation as cross cultural issues are certainly part of it

Well that is it, isn't it? I've spent my entire life caring for others and losing out in some capacity.

This past couple of years, I have begun to push back against it all, and in the midst of all the crappy stuff which would have been happening anyway, I've actually embarked on a career which is using many skills I didn't even know I had, and I am being told almost every day how competent and authoritative I am, and although it's hard work, I am discovering that I am actually a useful, worthwhile person who doesn't have to be the very last in line for everything.

I'm not saying work is the panacea or anything, it's just a brilliant barometer for me of what a difference there can be in a life when you aren't assuming that you aren't as important or worthwhile as everyone else.

This thread is so timely for me. I have honestly felt for so long I am living someone elses life.

I (real secret me in my head) am pretty much a rockstar to be honest. But the me I live in real time is some insipid people pleaser. Wtf?
I basically have the rage, I want the last few decades back please.

Mine is not Beryl though, Beryl is my much adored and missed grandmother.

Mine is called Myrtle

I am now starting to think of what Beryl has done to me and I don't know if I can stand the fury it gives me.

Seriously Beryl needs to fuck off.

I have just rtft - such a great one- and when PackingSoap introduced the idea of naming the inner self-sacrificing character in order to help to disassociate from her - I thought 'what a great idea! I'm going to do that'. Then I thought - shit Beryl is such a good name I think I can't top that.

So glad to see others gave also adopted the name Beryl - I am totally nicking it. PackingSoap

I did assertiveness training many years ago for work and it was actually really useful at the time. I remember very little of it other than when you say no, think of it as saying yes to the other thing. So 'no i cant make the teas for the meeting' is 'yes i can focus on what im paid to do' it helps me a lot.

The other stuff was around playing a role so if someone is agressive they put you in the role of victim so you need to put yourself in the role of calm parent with a naughty child. It was very work based but it did help me manage a few colleagues.

I'm getting better in my personal life at being more assertive but obviously there are real risks for women and some of this conditioning is a bit of self preservation to as lots of people don't like it of you stand up for yourself.

I do feel like running a world full of entitled people means there is no hope but for it to become a jungle where people endlessly fight to draw territorial boundaries and push each other out of the way.

I think its more about the western world having become a more equal, more compassionate and entitled, misogynist behaviours being very much less acceptable.

The narrative is:

Whole lot of stuff about inclusion and equality and intersectionality (but working only one way because reasons)

Whole lot of stuff about the need for love and tolerance
(but working only one way because reasons)

Whole lot of stuff about high, rigid, policed expectations around safety, inclusion, kindness that severely restrict everyone else to a code of positive behaviour
(but working only one way because reasons)

Basically it boils down to a whole lot of recognition of high expected behaviour and standards, and therefore there is a lot of careful explanation as to why they are a special exception and don't have to follow them or feel bad about not following them. But why they should definitely apply to everyone else. It's a brilliant reason not to take responsibility for own behaviour, and to separate the world into providers/nurturers and recipients. (Mostly them, and some friends.)

It's the same as an abusive man who could explain very articulately and pleasantly why he keeps his wife on 20p a day per head to feed her and the children and refuses her all other money (and why this is all her fault and she drove him to it and it's perfectly reasonable and rational anyway), but comes home with an expensive takeaway, sits at the table and eats it himself while they eat beans on toast. And sees that as wholly justified

Lundy Bancroft has written books about the entitlement and distorted perceptions of abusive men that allow them to rationalise why they should be treated to the high standards to which they feel they deserve, while not extending those standards to others. It's emotionally stuck somewhere around two and a half in terms of development. Bancroft often challenges these men on their many, many reasons they use to deflect taking responsibility or admitting they do it because they plain want to and like what they get out of it.

The problem with us talking in public about this (:)) is that we in a completely different place from certain other people who will take this "empowering" language on to be even more selfish dickheads.

Love this thread so much. I just wrote on a thread about finding and holding the difficult middle ground, then found this thread. Reading and thinking. Thank you all :)

Cruel to be kind. YES!
Pathological altruism. NO! We can be kind without being stupid. Discerning.

Absolutely angry at those TV set ups where women are framed to be seen as shouty or demanding when they are actually being reasonable and not self harming, or wanting standards to rise.

I saw a classic Coronation Street the other day and there was a scene in a amusement arcade type shop where Deirdre was trying to get the manager to stop letting kids in to gamble away their money. He was a childish, selfish, scrote obviously, and after she was quite rightly standing up to him and not being cowed, he made some comment about pitying her husband or something like that.

That episode was 30 years ago.

In the olden days (the 80's) assertiveness training for women was very much a 'thing' and I bought an excellent book about it called A Woman In Your Own Right by Anne Dickson. I see that the 30th anniversary (!) edition is now available - I strongly recommend it!

bluetits I will look into the budhist take on this for sure !

I agree about self compassion. I also have been told that the difference between being “too nice” and “kind” is that the first one is not a choice and the second one is.

I certainly feel that- most kindness- should be a choice.

However, I do think if there is a way to have certain traits be expected from society as a whole .. men and women, then it’s jjst a nicer world to be in. Not everything. Not doormatting anyone. Just certain things ..

Like how we are expected to get up and let a pregnant woman sit on the tube. It’s expected because it should be.

So I would say I would like to choose whether I’m kind or not, unless the greater good in a fair system dictates that it’s necessady then I don’t mind not having a choice because I won’t be taken advantage of , I would expect something in return.

Compassion is a good word, ILoveHumanity. I like the Buddhist take on it- compassion doesn’t mean doing exactly what someone else wants and self-compassion is essential.

I notice this so much in dramatisations. I find myself being annoyed over depictions that are staged to show the woman/female partner as demanding and unreasonable - but merely show her failing to conform to the unreasonable things that are implicitly demanded of her.

Only part way through the thread, but oh, god, this, so much!!!!

Poor DS was witness to a huge rant from me over an episode of the teen programme "The Next Step" over this. Boy has had crush on girl for ages. Boy asks girl out, very, very publicly, in the sort of cringe making scenario where your choices are acquiesce or look like a shit. Girl actually musters the courage to say "actually, no thanks, don't think of you that way." She is then ostracised by the rest of the dance troop - and (the killer) the show makes it quite clear that they and the boy are meant to be right and she is meant to be wrong.

Boy oh boy did I rant about boundaries and emotional coercion still being coercion and "no means no" over that one.

NotANotMan and OP

I am loving this thread.

It is true that kindness shouldn’t be coercedor deserved. I stand corrected.

But I do feel like running a world full of entitled people means there is no hope but for it to become a jungle where people endlessly fight to draw territorial boundaries and push each other out of the way.

I do think men as in the sexist egoistic men would’nt have been able to coexist together if it wasn’t for the compassionate kind gluing humanity together.

I do think though that it’s not fair for us to be self sacrificial to take it upon ourselves to rescue the compassion in this world in a wider sense.

However I’m just trying to give some meaning to our compassionate tendencies and how it makes this world a better place. And I feel like our standards of how to be or not to be should be based around such morals of humanity and not on perception by the opposite gender.

So it’s not like kindness is deserved or reserved. More like, shouldn’t we be celebrating compassion anyway as humans.. the type of kindness which makes us feel good afterwards.

And those who have been programmed to take advantage of us to be exceptionally excluded from our formula - guilty until proven innocent kind of thing ?

I probably don’t make sense.

Like for me , something like, unless a man shows signs of kindness then I wouldn’t want to be my compassionate self with them and I’ll just be friends with a bloke mentality.

But in my day to day relations I’m my compassionate me.

I’m just exploring . This is a topic dear to me

I love that Beryl has a name now!

Here's my thing I'm trying: I'm calling out really clearly at work where someone else hasn't done their thing. There was traditionally a really fluffy and personal work culture where certain people were "in" and it was really "not done" to point out things left undone. Now we are professionalising and certain people (me) are under a lot of pressure. I have not caught up with this till now, in pointing out where people just haven't done their bit and I'm not equipped to do mine.

No more. People can just get on with it or have it exposed to the world that they couldn't be arsed.

Thank you for this thread OP, it's fascinating.

The hardest thing for me is just being aware enough to notice when I'm being overly kind at the time so I can stop it!
I had been making some progress but find I regress when stressed or tired -it's like doormat is the default position when I don't have the strength to be mindful of it.

Years of dealing with responsibilities as a carer, an insecure job and health issues have left little energy for personal growth.

I'm sure many women are dealing with similar situations and it's brilliant to read how others handle these things.

DH claimed he couldn't tell the dirty from the clean laundry baskets

Machines! Machines are manly! You ladies couldn’t possibly understand! Except the washing machine, that one is an impenetrable mystery....