Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

I find it absurd to expect mothers - especially with babies/small children to put themselves first.

When you breastfeed and are overcome by thirst, you can't just put the baby down and get a drink. You need to put up with it or get a willing adult within earshot, if there is one, to get you a glass of water. When you would rather sleep through the night, but your baby cries and needs to be fed, get changed, etc - you can't just roll over and get more shut eye - you have to wake the fuck up and tend to the baby. The ability to put others first is essential for looking after helpless infants - in order that they thrive.

You’re totally right on number 4 rebel. I say to myself that I want to treat myself how I’d want someone I was dating to treat me, I almost ‘date’ myself if you will. I am definitely my number 1 priority and I’m fine and happy with that. In fact, I wouldn’t expect someone I was dating to put me first all the time so I probably treat myself better!

Wow this thread is amazing.
Some things that pop in my mind.

1. What nice/kind actually means. If you don't go out of your way to be a dick to other people you already are nice. It can be shown just as much,if not more by what you don't do (abuse,bullying,kicking puppies, whatever) than what you do. There isn't a list to tick to show niceness.

2.look at why you are nice/kind. Because you want to or because it's expected/demanded/coerced/nothing gets done unless you do it. If it's any of the latter, you're not necessarily nice,you're just ticking a checklist for whatever reason.

1. Being someone's easy option doesn't mean you are nice,you're just someone's easy option. That can be anything from long lost male crying on your shoulder to having a shitload of work dumped on you,when it's not your responsibility. It helps to look at it as it is,rather than having the nice/not nice internal debate.

1. Cheesy but true, if you're at the bottom of your priority list why would anyone else put you at the top of theirs?

I suspect motherhood is when the risk of falling into the ways of Beryldom begin.

If your partner doesn’t take on some of the menial stuff then you’ve fallen into Beryldom.

Most definitely and as I said on another thread if the Dad just refuses to do certain things then sometimes it's a question of either you do it or the kids lose out. Most mothers won't let the kids lose out (read relationships and the number of Disney dads, it seems to be so common).

As kids get older, yes they can help but when they're little and if the man refuses to help then it's the mother or no-one and the child is neglected. And women get demonised if they don't do the basics well (clean clothes, food etc). And once you've fallen into that role in the early years, it's hard (not impossible but hard and tiring) to undo.

And as Lass says, of course it's reasonable for the SAHP to do stuff in the working day while the other parent is out, but in my experience it ends up often with the SAHMs doing ALL the cooking and ALL the food shopping, week days and weekends (and often ALL the laundry and cleaning too). This isn't the case for me (though I think I definitely do more than 50% on weekends and evenings), but I know lots of women where this is the case and for whom it wasn't that way at all at first, and whose other half will get home and say 'I'm so tired' and expect dinner on the table as if running around after 2 under 5s plus doing housework at the same time isn't bloody tiring. And having to point out the unfairness all the time is often a fight too much for women who are already doing so much.

Once you've had kids often your love for them essentially traps you. One thing at a societal level that would help would be if Dads who don't equally parent were demonised to the same extent 'neglectful' mothers are.

But if you always cook to please other people when do you ever get to eat what you like? Ideally you should share cooking duties with others in the household who can cook, or if you are the only adult (I don’t except that no adult can cook and if they can’t they can learn and follow a recipe) then show your kids that on at least one day of the week we eat what mummy likes. Because otherwise you teach your sons and daughters mothers/women’s opinions are second beSt.

"make something you fancy for dinner and not what everyone else will want to eat."

It's possible to cook meals that at least one or two family members like. It would be unfair to never cook what your dh or dc like and it has never occurred to me not to cook my preferred meals at least once or twice each week.

I find this thread really interesting as my experience of being a girl, woman, mother, employee, daughter etc. is not like this at all. I do not sacrifice my own happiness, of course I make sacrifices as having children requires me to do. My dh is super helpful and probably tidies more than me (far, far from perfect before anyone accuses me of stealth boast, he has many irritating habits, as have I) but right now he has figured out how our sewing machine works and is teaching dc a few tricks on it whilst I am mumsnetting.

Johnny , I mentioned 'cool girl syndrome ' (something discussed on previous threads) and 'identifying out of oppression' as a way of showing that things don't always turn out how we intend. I'm not chastising myself for those choices, I'm saying that they didn't lead to the freedom I wanted due to unexpected circumstances.
I opted out of parenthood but have due to DH's health problems I have ended up in a caring role anyway.

I expect many women find themselves having to deal with difficult circumstances where emotional and physical exhaustion means they don't have the energy to overcome any negative conditioning from their past, and the boiling frog situation is a common one. We are complex creatures and our individual conditioning can play out in a myriad of ways.

It's easy to judge others as not sticking up for themselves or whatever, but walk a mile in their moccasins as the saying goes.

make something you fancy for dinner and not what everyone else will want to eat.

That's a good one. Cooking to please yourself first.

If you are the one who does the shopping and cooking then make something you fancy for dinner and not what everyone else will want to eat. Everyone else will just have to go hungry or respect that as they’ve not prepared dinner they should be grateful someone has made them a meal for them...

If you don’t put yourself first no one will. I have volunteered for various things throughout my life, but one thing about volunteering is that people will put pressure on you to give, give, give. The moment it becomes too much it’s time to say no and step back. It can be incredibly rewarding but at the same time you have to be careful you are not taken for granted.

I suspect motherhood is when the risk of falling into the ways of Beryldom begin. As soon as you conceive you are in effect prioritising the needs of your baby over yourself. No drinking, smoking, eating shellfish etc. You have to put the needs of the baby first. Then you have the fourth trimester, whereby babies are incredibly reliant on their mother (it can be a father but let’s be honest it’s usually mum). If you choose to breastfeed you continue being subservient until baby is weaned. Unless the father takes on 50% parental leave you will become the default arse wiper, the one who gets all the ‘can I have...’

If your partner doesn’t take on some of the menial stuff then you’ve fallen into Beryldom.

When my dh is home and The kids ask me for anything, I am known to wail, “other parents are available, thank you!”

My dh did do 6 months at home with one of our kids, I don’t think we would have had more tbh If he had not. I would like to see our country have the same paternity/maternity leave set up like in Norway and other parts of Scandinavia.

So I would say mothers need to stop treating their kids like they’re babies and let them become independent and get them to do stuff to help you, they are not the centre of the universe. And we need to stop treating our husbands like children too.

I volunteered to help out on an open day, I asked a male teacher to get me a cup of tea and a bacon sandwich. He obliged, the rest of the male staff were gobsmacked. I was busy setting up a display and felt I deserved one, and he did ask if I needed any help.

I love this anecdote and feel it could be a helpful template in overcoming Beryl.

I wonder if that could be a challenge. Ask a bloke or someone of senior rank to do something menial for you, in such a way that defies gendered expectations, because you need/deserve it?

27 same. My mum supported me over my dad when I stood up to him and said no, I’m not having you dictate to me (this was teenage and young adult arguments about what to do with my life, basically. Not any kind of serious abuse).

I’ve never had an issue standing up to men, as I said earlier. There are countless posts on here of women in the workplace who feel undermined and walked over by male bosses and male members of staff. Even as a 22 year old junior, I remember arguing with a male head of department because I KNEW his idea of how to implement a project would result in failure. I said to him, and I quote - “I’ll stop telling you you’re wrong when you stop being wrong”. Long story short, I ended up being more heavily involved in said project and invited to meetings with the CEO to present my workings because they were impressed with me, much to the chagrin of my direct (male) boss. It’s always come very naturally to me in adulthood (not so much when I was bullied at school) to stand up for myself. I learned the other day I earn more than a man at work on the same level as me, and I’m fairly sure my attitude in asking for more money at interview had a part to play in that. My job is mid-senior and I’ve never hired or run a team before but I convinced them at interview I could do it, because I knew I could. I don’t see that attitude being displayed from other women very often and I wonder why. Is it all part of the wider feeling that demanding what you want and voicing your capabilities is bad? I honestly don’t really care if men think I’m pushy and annoying at work. Conversely, I think I’d have found it much harder to stand up to female bosses. Perhaps because the worst bullying I experienced was from girls, I feel more uneasy standing up to women than I do men

"Submissiveness is not kindness." I'd say that submissiveness toward men is in actual fact quite rude. As an adult woman, why should I be submissive to my husband, male boss, father? FFS, I can stand on my own two feet and look after myself. My dad is lovely with a slight controlling tendency. I rebelled hugely against him as a teenager and my mum supported me over my dad when he was being unreasonable. My lovely father got over himself and his incredibly supportive of me and family. He respects me completely and is super proud of my achievements. He also raised me to never completely depend financially on any man.

That is a very good post 27Pounds

I'd speculate that a lot of women's Beryl kicks in at motherhood because of both the boiling frog scenario, but also until you have kids you never really get the full-frontal assault of society's unreasonably high expectations of women.

People are so judgemental of mothers who are not impossibly perfect - it is off the scale. Parenthood is really tough, especially if you don't have any extended family to lend a hand or give support. People who don't have kids are often ludicrous in their judgements and impossible expectations of parents.

You even get people who don't have kids trying to dictate to parents that they should put their kids on puberty blockers or let them transition at school without parental knowledge. It is fucking rich coming from people who have sacrificed nothing of themselves to raise kids.

These unreasonable and unrealistic expectation of parents, especially mothers, who are basically being set up to fail, is where the scene is set for the frog to slowly boil.

'Helen Saxby says, Women are socialised to be kind so it makes it difficult for us when standing up for our rights is painted as being 'unkind'. We should just feel 'entitled' instead, like men do"

I disagree strongly with the framing and narrative of the OP.

I think kindness and empathy are incredibly important and the human race should foster more kindness not less.

I am an ordinary woman but was raised implicitly to not pander to men. My mum didn't pander to my dad and I don't pander to my husband. I do have an entitled brother, but he gets short rift when he is being and arse. However that doesn't mean I won't be there for my brother when he or his children need help but I won't take bullshit from him.

There is huge difference between kindness and being a door mat. Sometimes the kindest thing is to say no. Healthy boundaries mean that you are kind to yourself as well as others as social situations are much clearer.

I teach my dc to be kind but to represent their healthy self interest. I can only be kind to others if I am kind to myself and my needs are met on the whole.

Also courage to be alone rather than in toxic company and building a good support network. You can't build a good support network if you are not kind.

My mum worked, I work and even if it sucks some days, I am glad that I have the security of being a professional and not entirely reliant on my dh.

I know somebody who actively teaches her daughter not to be kind because of her perceived idea that women who are kind get taken advantage of . She lives in servitude to her husband and son. I am watching from the sidelines how er poor lovely dd is expected to pander to her brothers wants and needs. This person's son is rude, entitled, controlling of his sister. The mother expects her dd to either deal with it herself or suck it up. That is not a gerat way to teach a girl self worth, I won't be surprised if this girl will find an equally entitled husband and continue with this female servitude.

Let's be kind and strong and work on healthy boundaries. I think kindness is incredibly underrated. But let's not mistake kindness for meekness. Submissiveness is not kindness.
Apologies for the long post.

It might be interesting to think who may have made sacrifices for you along the way

Oh fgs if one isn't a martyr then one must have martyred someone else. Who made sacrifices for me? No one.

What I find genuinely fascinating is a) so many women think it’s a given that being a mother has to come at the detriment of themselves and their own self worth

I don't get that either. I am a mother. I genuinely don't understand how being a mother involves taking on the role of being a martyr; or assuming the responsibility for everything domestic or as I said before putting up with or even facilitating another fully functioning adult to stop doing things they were perfectly capable of doing before "Beryl" chose to do them.

Although I also think if you choose to be a full time SAHM doing some of these things in the hours when the other party is working outside the home might just be part of the job.

there seems to be a minority of women on here including myself who’ve bypassed having a Beryl completely, despite being exposed to situations that could have created one

It might be interesting to think who may have made sacrifices for you along the way.

LikeDust you are right everyone owes their existence to the woman who gave birth to them. What I find genuinely fascinating is a) so many women think it’s a given that being a mother has to come at the detriment of themselves and their own self worth (granted, I’m not one so I can’t comment on how I’d feel if I was, or what kind of subconscious programming may take over) and b) there seems to be a minority of women on here including myself who’ve bypassed having a Beryl completely, despite being exposed to situations that could have created one

I have to tell him to be tougher with others (including me) quite often.

Wouldn't it be lovely if more men did this for their women the way you do this for your husband!

I don't think humans are a bad thing. I think humans are the most amazing and mysterious thing. Our culture, technology and achievements are mind-boggling.

I don't see why nihilists keep on living. Surely every meal you eat is draining the Earth's resources which could be better used by other species? Why do you go on living if you hate human life so much?

I'm not saying you or anyone should have kids if you don't want to, but you and everyone else alive owes their existence to the birthing class of women. You benefit from othes' Beryl whether you like it or not.

There are men who are ridiculously self-sacrificing and attentive to others, but they are rare as hen's teeth and often grew up 'replacing' their mother

My husband can be like this and he had an emotionally absent mother and an ineffective father. I have to tell him to be tougher with others (including me) quite often.

If society genuinely provided a framework in which parenting was equal, men and women could have equal time out of the workplace and equal flexibility, childcare was subsidised, pre nups were legally enforceable so women could protect their finances, there’d be much more incentive to get married and have kids because it wouldn’t come at the detriment of women’s independence. As it is, there’s pretty much zero incentive for a woman unless they really want kids.

Ok, if everyone took that stance the human race would die out... and that’s a bad thing why, exactly? Why do you care if you contribute to humanity becoming extinct? We’re fucking the planet up anyway. No one HAS to reproduce out of a sense of obligation. If it’s what they genuinely want, fine, but that’s really very sad if people who aren’t sure if that’s a life they want for themselves do it because they feel they should or would be committing some moral sin otherwise. I have zero guilt about not wanting kids or marriage, I’ve known since my own childhood that it just wasn’t for me