Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

That’s a really useful link, Arranfan, many thanks.

I find this thread pretty depressing- particularly the posts from Likedust who seems to be revelling in her Beryl martyr status and that everything will fall apart if she doesn't do everything.

Yes, I think it's important to recognise that Beryl affects more than just the domestic arena. She can also affect your career.

It took me a long time to realise, for example, that doing freelance work for my employer (overtime, essentially) in the way I did on top of my contracted work meant that I did not not accrue benefits for that extra work. I was classed as contractually part time in terms of maternity leave and pay, despite working for upwards of 60 hours a week and being paid for those hours.

Beryl blinded me to that. In fact I would go so far as to say it was a certain type of working class Berylhood that kicked in (which is another whole can of worms, I do think class plays into how Beryl manifests).

I agreed to do the work because I wanted to be a valuable employee and hoped it would lead to promotion eventually. It didn't and I got screwed.

But it's the same gendered pattern. I cleaned up enormous messes left behind by people who didn't know what they were doing. I was the hand maiden at work as well.

The thing that has made me reflect is that I’ve realise I get no pleasure at all from many (not all) relationships - it’s all been about giving them a good time/support/love. At the moment I feel I would rather just like to be a hermit and oddly indifferent to people I once really cared about.

likedust

2) To develop a tolerance for societal/social disapproval.

Yes I've learnt (from here actually) that just because someone disapproves of something you said or did doesn't mean everyone will and doesn't mean you're a bad person. It's liberating to realise this.

To others who said about birthday and Christmas cards I remember talking to the dad of a male friend of mine once. He said he was pleased when his son had a girlfriend because he and his wife would get birthday and Christmas cards!

I like this thread. I haven't managed to read it all yet. I am just as bad with women as men. A friend basically emotionally blackmailed me into spending £300 which I can't afford on going to her birthday party. In reaction to this I didn't sleep for a week and binged like there was no tomorrow. I felt I had to do what she said so I turned my anger and resentment in on myself. I do the same at work: accept far too much work then binge and don't sleep eaten up with resentment. I am getting better at work but with friends it's much tougher.

Sorry to hear that, bluetits sounds v similar to my mum (no diagnosis of dementia, but the writing seems to be on the wall that things are heading that way, sadly).

packingsoap looks like we all hate our own Beryls. New mumsnet word there for sure!

Btw I also think giving credit to others is part of this. I spent a lot of my working life making sure appropriate people got credit for work they did but it took my years to realise I wasn't being treated the same and was missing out on recognition for my work. In fact others were taking credit for it (worked in veey male dominated area), and on one occasion boasting to me about it! I've then started to try and take credit where I felt I was owed but it's hard as it sounds so petty, and it was too little too late.

Yes fuck Beryl and fuck politeness. There's a podcast called "My Favourite Murder" where they talk of different murders or near misses of attempted murder and their mantra is "Fuck Politeness". The amount of times women are murdered or nearly murdered because of their politeness is very very obvious when you hear their stories. (Sounds horrid podcast but the female hosts wrap the stories around lighthearted chat so it's not awful as it sounds.)

I have a very strong Beryl. I am so anxious for everyone around me to be happy, that I now have a rather selfish husband and daughter who are far too used to being ‘serviced’. It’s going to take a while to get any equality at all in the household.
My husband does his own ironing, makes his own packed lunches and cleans the sinks and toilets, he also likes doing Christmas stuff, which I suppose is a start. I have recently stopped bothering about birthday stuff for his extensive family. And I’ve stopped volunteering to help at things that I really don’t want to help with. I do think women make a lot of extra work for themselves sometimes - thinking of endless Christmas fairs, cakes sales, coffee mornings, none of which I actually like.

Pondering how else to stop being so kind....

"Another mother anecdote: her speciality pudding for guests is meringues. She hates meringues and never eats them. But every special meal, out come the meringues. Just, why?"

I must be inherently selfish, my whole family adore meringues. I hate them. I never make them nor do I entertain the idea of anyone else making them. I cook a mean rice pudding though, which they also love.

My mum is great in so many ways, but I do wish she hadn't taught me more or less that, as the woman, I have to be the reasonable one and 'compromise' because for years it made it hard for me to stand up to DH when he was in a bad mood, as I think I'd internalised the idea that I couldn't stand up to anger.

So I have started standing up to him when he's angry and I think he's wrong, and it's difficult but I am always glad when I do it. I don't want to teach my daughter that you just give in to the angry, shouty man .I want to teach her that if he loses his temper with her for no good reason, she is entitled to say 'I don't have to answer you/do X for you when you talk to me like that' Because I think it's an especially important thing for women to be able to do.

3) To find ways to get you partner take responsibility for wifework.

I still do a lot of household and DD related work,part because of my working hours and part because I'm a control freak.
I don't do "his" stuff though. He's a perfectly able grownup so I don't cook for him, sort his paperwork,remind him of appointments,if he wants something on the food shop he needs to say,laundry only if it's where it's supposed to be and so on.Yes things go tits up sometimes and that's on him and his problem to deal with. Weekend stuff (housework,doing stuff with DD,birthday parties etc)we share as much as possible.

My mother is appalled and pitied the poor neglected man. Especially when it comes to food.

My mum's very similar sophocles. She has dementia and obsesses over everyone having enough to eat or drink. She constantly worries about having enough milk etc and gets distressed that she can't manage to cook an enormous buffet for friends, family and neighbours at Christmas. She did pretty much everything for the family growing up even though she worked full time (dad cooked sometimes but expected to be given a round of applause for it) and continued to do so after they both retired.

It's incredibly sad she defines herself in this way -she was the youngest woman to enter her job at the time and the first woman to get a particular role in her workplace. She's creative and widely travelled but in her twilight years she's obsessing over bloody milk.

I mean my grandparents get cards from their son's ex-girlfriend, since they had a daughter together and she is probably more part of our family now than their son is (my uncle), since he fucked off and nobody ever hears from him. She my aunt, though not through marriage or blood. It would be weird for us to just not bother with eachother because technically my uncle should do it

Christmas is approaching and there will be the usual martyred complaints from posters about having to do everything. I have never bought a birthday or Christmas present or card for any of his family . I don't expect him to do so for my friends and family and what he does for his family is up to him.

This I do. His family deserve some recognition at Christmas and they are "my" family now, so to speak, now we have a daughter. They wouldn't get anything from him, and I think it's out of order considering his brother isn't even in secondary school yet so at least he should get something from "us". I don't expect him to get anything for my family because they don't associate, but I and his family do (visits etc).

I've noticed of late that her internal monologue has become external (factor of increasing cognitive impairment), and it consists entirely of "I must", and "I should" and "I have to". It's heartbreaking. What must it be like living inside that hellscape of never ending obligation? Her memory is going, and the obsessions that she has developed relate entirely to the comfort and wellbeing of people around her.

This is absolutely bloody heartbreaking, Sophocles.

(I would be the same about the MiL's birthday if my husband CBA, too.)

I think there are a few things that need to happen to overcome Beryl.

1. To improve ones self worth.

2. To develop a tolerance for societal/social disapproval.

3. To find ways to get you partner take responsibility for wifework.

4. To be able to shrug it off as 'it's not my fault/not my problem' if you saw something coming, it happened and you did nothing.

5. To begin with small conscious acts of self-centredness.

I think number's 1 and 3 are probably the trickiest.

Isn't it just

Aw it's so bloody pitiful! Your poor mum.

I've recently recruited my husband to helping me defeat Beryl.

When I catch myself doing it, I stop and start sniffing the air, and say "What's that smell?", and if he thinks I'm Beryling, he'll say "the rank stench of burning martyr"

Another mother anecdote: her speciality pudding for guests is meringues. She hates meringues and never eats them. But every special meal, out come the meringues. Just, why?

Great thread.

I have a strong Beryl and was raised by a woman whose internal Beryl is the most Beryliest Beryl who ever inhabited a woman's psyche. She lost her own mother young, and I think reacted to that by honing her will to be of service with laser precision.

I've noticed of late that her internal monologue has become external (factor of increasing cognitive impairment), and it consists entirely of "I must", and "I should" and "I have to". It's heartbreaking. What must it be like living inside that hellscape of never ending obligation? Her memory is going, and the obsessions that she has developed relate entirely to the comfort and wellbeing of people around her. Do you have a drink? What do you want for breakfast, for lunch, for dinner? Are you happy? Is husband happy? Is everything in the house clean, well-ordered, available for people?

Her Beryl is a psychotic bitch. What could my mum have done in life if she'd have managed to tell Beryl to get bent and replaced all the "I have to" with "I want to"?

The topic of my mother in laws birthday came up recently when I was talking to my mum and sister. I don't know exactly when her birthday is (late August I think?). We're not at all close - she's a perfectly nice person, but we live hundreds of miles apart and don't often get in touch. My husband, her son couldn't reliably tell you when her birthday is and I made a policy decision very early doors in the relationship that I would not be performing that piece of wife work. So it often goes unremembered. I don't send a card. I don't buy a present.

My mum and sister were legit horrified. They spent a good ten minutes telling me what an awful person that makes me. Their faces were a picture. And it was really, really hard to stick to my guns. That's social conditioning for you.

I am working on getting Beryl to STFU. Sometimes it works.

slightly digressing but I used to hobble to the tap for a glass of water whilst dc was still latched on

Aw yes. Bless you. I remember developing similar skills as time went on. My heart goes out to all the mum's with little infants - all the indignities, needing to wing it so much. Especially those with a partner who is more of a hindrance than a help

And there are no real consequences. He sends yesterday’s uneaten lunch back to school in kid’s lunchbox and I get an email. Not him. He arrives home at midnight and nothing happens.

But there are consequences- as far as for the well-being of the children is concerned isn't there (its just that he doesn't really care enough about them)?

People can make all sorts of facile comments about simply refusing to do something and not enable the man, but if you go on strike and ignore Beryl, things will start to fall apart and hurt the kids.

I really agree with what someone said up thread about how you don't know whether you have one of the helpful men until you have kids with them. I remember reading on 'post secret' a man saying that he lies and says he has to work late so he doesn't have to do bedtime with his kids. The bloke who posted that secret probably lied to his partner about how he really wanted to be an involved dad, etc, but the reality is that he can't stand parenting and finds ways of escaping to let his partner bear the entire burden.

yeahcorvid I think you have something in the respect angle. Getting respect for being kind is giving something back in return.

I have been reading about some differnt (hunter gatherer) societies where the roles of men and women are very strongly defined, but the men show significant respect for the roles that the women are undertaking and I wonder how much that mutual respect is what prevents resentment