Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC reality check on trans prisoners

87 replies

FermatsTheorem · 13/08/2018 10:09

Let's play that great gameshow activity "what crucial piece of information is missing from this report?"

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

Those numbers add up to more than 60 because some prisoners are serving time for more than one offence.

We don't know the gender of the victims or perpetrators in these cases.

Which is why, BBC, it is important to put in a breakdown of overall numbers of prisoners in the UK, numbers of sex offenders and number of violent offenders - BY SEX!

And, gosh, guess what, "Reality Check"? This information is but a quick google away, because the government actually put the figures online for us - they're not hidden away in a cellar with broken stairs in a locked filing cabinet with a sign saying "beware of the leopard."

From the report for 2017:
"In 1900 there were 152 male prisoners per 100,000 men in the population. This rate has increased to 348 per 100,000 in 2017. There were 27 female prisoners per 100,000 head of female population in 1900. In 2017 this rate had decreased to 16 per 100,000."

I believe the current figures are that 98% of the prisoners in the UK convicted of sexual offences are serving time in the male estate.

Sex offending (despite recent much publicised "women do it too" newspaper reports) is overwhelmingly committed by men.

OP posts:
CaitlynsCat · 14/08/2018 10:52

"The new facts the BBC's own FOIs revealed in the fact check are the extent and serious nature of the sex crimes the prisoners have committed."

Yes inded. At least half of the sex offenders are rapists.

One thing they do note,

"Nor does it count prisoners who have already been given a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC).

About 250-350 GRCs are issued each year across the UK - 4,910 since 2005."

According to the stats, around 74% of GRCs are issued to biological males.

This suggests 3633 biological males with GRCs, which suggest another 13 males with GRCs in prison - however it may be that the proportion of prisoners with GRCs is much higher, as clearly most transgender people don't have GRCs, but it's much more useful if you are in prison, because it gives you an entitlement to go where you want.

The government refuses to keep track of proper track of dangerous sex offenders and rapists, because obviously the more important thing is to respect their gender identity than to prevent sexual offences being committed.

What we know:

  • 125 identified trans inmates of which around half are sex offenders
  • unknown numbers, but at least a dozen, and probably rather more, of secret (GRC) trans inmates, for which we have no reason to assume aren't also sex offenders
  • several dozen more trans inmates (likely) who are not yet on the figures, because trans identity is clearly exploding among incarcerated males, as evinced by the figures.

Note that the BBC further assert & imply, without providing any evidence that "There are likely to be more trans inmates, on shorter sentences and who are less likely to be sex offenders, who don't show up in this data."

In the interests of doing their job, because they're too biased, here are the data:

  • Sexual offences: 60 months (18.6% of the prison population)
  • Robbery: 45 months (9.8% of the prison population)
  • Drugs: 34 months (15.2% of the prison population)
  • Criminal damage/arson: 27 months (1.5% of the prison population)
  • Violence against the person: 26 months (25.8% of the prison population)
  • Fraud: 18 months (1.8% of the prison population)
  • Weapons possession: 15 months (3.4% of the prison population)
  • Misc: 10 months (4.6% of the prison population)
  • Theft: 9 months (13.1% of the prison population)
  • Public order: 7 months (1.7% of the prison population)

The BBC claims "there's little point having a case conference if the inmate won't be in prison long enough to benefit from it."

They don't provide any source on what "long enough" means, such as linking to PSI 17/2016.

Note that PSI 17/2016 says

"Transgender prisoners who provide full evidence of their legally affirmed or acquired gender must be transferred to the part of the prison estate consistent with their legal gender. This includes those who can demonstrate that they have commenced the process of applying for a GRC"

In other words you don't need to actually have a GRC, it's enough to have 'commenced the process of applying', whatever the fuck that means.

Again, the BBC are only interested in whitewashing so they don't discuss this.

PSI 17/2016 states:

"Transgender prisoners must be informed by PECS escort contractor’s staff that a local Transgender Case Board will be convened within three working days of reception into custody to review their care and management (including location) and they will be able to participate in and/or make their views known to this Board"

This implies that in fact the transgender case conference is not a rare thing for the lifer locked up for years, but in fact an automatic process for every transgender prisoner, to be conducted within 3 working days.

Why don't the BBC provide a source on their claims?

Are they really suggesting that the huge disparity between the minority (

ASliceOfArcticRoll · 14/08/2018 09:51

"I have a"

ASliceOfArcticRoll · 14/08/2018 09:50

I have called little inward grown when directed to a BBC reality check by MN posters. Or the wee, twee instructional films that proliferate on their website.

It's sad as I grew up respecting the BBC.

Wanderabout · 14/08/2018 09:46

Important twitter thread on vulnerability of women prisoners.

mobile.twitter.com/KatharineQ/status/1029283034774863872

This hardly gets mentioned in this debate and is shocking and distressing.

"very high levels of self-harm, including women trying to disembowel themselves or bite their own flesh"

Wanderabout · 14/08/2018 08:43

The new facts the BBC's own FOIs revealed in the fact check are the extent and serious nature of the sex crimes the prisoners have committed. This is in direct contrast to the previous claims of TRAs and is the obvious story here. Which the BBC appear to have attempted to either bury or possibly if the site editor is in holiday atm have missed.

Wanderabout · 14/08/2018 08:28

So Fair Play for Women excluded most people serving short sentences, i.e. most people not convicted of violent crimes.
There is your skewing artefact.

No. The FPFW figures used the available data and tallied almost exactly with the MoJ figures.

The article says the MoJ are now saying there may be transgender people in prison they haven't noticed or recorded (?!?). This would skew the data and raises some interesting questions, like what biological sex are these prisoners, are they in the male or female estate and why on earth on such an important and impactful subject does the MoJ stil not hold and release accurate data?

R0wantrees · 14/08/2018 08:02

Andrew Gilligan (Times) comments:
mobile.twitter.com/mragilligan/status/1029092863081111552

"Almost half of trans prisoners counted by the Ministry of Justice are sex offenders, FOIs find - confirming fairplaywomen and Sunday Times research. The BBC did the FOIs, but clearly didn't like the result - downplaying it in typically mealy-mouthed way."

"It's dishonest, I think - no evidence is offered for BBC claim that short-sentence prisoners less likely to be sex offenders; and even if it's true, it won't change the percentage by much."

"The prison service claims that all trans prisoners are vetted carefully before being put in women's jails. That plainly isn't true."
link from tweet:
metro.co.uk/2018/07/18/transgender-prisoner-sexually-assaulted-female-inmates-days-jailed-7728870/

prolific Twitter TRA's reply when AG says read the article above:
"I don’t need to, the crazy idea that if vetting ever goes wrong, it can’t have taken place is self evident nonsense.
You doing the equivalent of claiming that Harold Shipman proves that all doctors are murders."

"I don't need to" read evidence that contradicts my view - the trans lobby in a nutshell. Surely the first alleged attack by this lady in her new prison should have been a teensy weensy flag of risk? But then there were allegedly allowed to be THREE more."

NB when someone on thread suggests that trans men surely be in male prison estate Francis Crook from Howard Reform League replies,
"No. I’ve not heard of trans men going to men’s prisons, they simply would not be safe."

FeminismandWomensFights · 14/08/2018 06:49

Government departments and organisations like the BBC can maintain their courtesy but they must keep the integrity of their sex-based statistics. Surely all they need to do if they want to be ‘inclusive’ is add a strap line each time like ‘NB these are sex-based statistics which are produced regardless of the indiivdual’s gender indentity.’ job done.

It is absolutely not OK to falsify everyone’s statistics to validate a tiny minority of people.

Doing so will scupper good initiatives that would benefit women at risk of offending AND would benefit women prisoners.

Because it stops us being able to distinguish men from women statistically even though men typically offend in much greater numbers, and men do so much more violently.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3334145-New-government-female-offender-strategy

CaitlynsCat · 14/08/2018 06:14

Would that be the Jane Fae who previously wrote approvingly about cartoon child pornography and other content beloved by violent rapists?
www.theregister.co.uk/2010/08/24/denmark_manga/
www.theregister.co.uk/2010/07/02/scotland_extreme_smut/
Such a good source. Does the BBC perhaps have a spokesman from the Paedophile Information Exchange to consult ?

InsaneVampire · 14/08/2018 05:38

So Fair Play for Women excluded most people serving short sentences, i.e. most people not convicted of violent crimes.
There is your skewing artefact.

R0wantrees · 14/08/2018 00:15

Jane Fae does seem the BBC go-to TRA commentator.

PeakPants · 13/08/2018 22:07

Transgender journalist and campaigner Jane Fae warns against reading too much into the available figures

Yeah, I'm sure Jane does... In other news, the pope is Catholic.

Wanderabout · 13/08/2018 21:29

The fall out in terms of violence and abuse against the women prisoners will be significant if people don't look at the evidence, listen to the experts and use some common sense.

Wanderabout · 13/08/2018 21:27

Has the BBC article added Jane Fae's comment or was that always there?

The comment says:
"Transgender journalist and campaigner Jane Fae warns against reading too much into the available figures.

"The real danger is that the public are likely to misinterpret them in a way that will create unwarranted hostility toward the minority under the microscope. The fall-out in terms of violence and abuse will, in some cases, be significant."

This is a person who has campaigned for violent rape porn to be legal. Why are the BBC including this person's comments on the threat of violent sexual offenders to vulnerable females, but not including the increasing range of prison experts, gender identity experts etc who are raising concerns based on their experience in the field:

Andrea Albutt, president of the Prison Governors Association said in June 2018: “I have seen women feeling very threatened by transgender prisoners’ presence. Women prisoners are very vulnerable.”

Frances Crook of the Howard League, a prison reform campaign, has said that she is worried that ‘some men with a history of extreme violence and sexual violence against women have found a new way of exercising aggression towards women’.

The British Psychological Society has said this “psychologists working with forensic patients are aware of a number of cases where men convicted of sex crimes have falsely claimed to be transgender females for a number of reasons”

Dr James Barrett of the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists has said this: “It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this”

R0wantrees · 13/08/2018 20:55

Isn't there an independent fact checking organisation? I remember their work after the Question Time episode with Paris Lees

ALittleBitofVitriol · 13/08/2018 20:37

Fucking hell bbc. You can just give us the numbers and add a 'of course not all trans people' disclaimer.
Actually trying to obfuscate the numbers is a terrible tactic, bye bye journalistic integrity...
women are being locked up with and assaulted by male rapists !!! This is totally fine in the world of the bbc.

ToeToToe · 13/08/2018 20:35

Agree with Andrew Gilligan. It's a sad day when the BBC fact check seems to deliberately be trying to muddy the waters.

Wanderabout · 13/08/2018 20:24

Andrew Gilligan nails it:

mobile.twitter.com/mragilligan/status/1029082413304094721

TransplantsArePlants · 13/08/2018 17:19

The BBC:

Heatwaver · 13/08/2018 17:15

This is a side issue, but did anyone else notice that, in the article, the BBC used the terminology about sex being “assigned at birth” but without quotation marks? I read an earlier BBC transgender related article recently where they did use the phrase within quotation marks. Perhaps the lack of quotation marks indicates the BBC’s increasing support for trans ideology?

Vickyyyy · 13/08/2018 16:35

BBC, impartial as always Hmm

R0wantrees · 13/08/2018 16:12

recent incidents in Scottish Female Estate and transgender prisoners:

May 2018 OP TerfinUSA wrote:

" www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/transgender-killers-kept-apart-after-12493525

Yes it's Sophie formerly Daniel Eastwood who terrified a female guard into quitting her job www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/female-prison-guard-quits-after-9379668

(NB Eastwood, referred to here as Hannibal (Hannah-belle, shurely: ed) Lecter Jr is not to be confused with Tiffany Scott formerly Andrew Burns www.alloaadvertiser.com/news/15507716.Shirtless_prisoner_hurls_abuse_at_sheriff_as_she_is_jailed/)

Sophie's charming campaign of terror earned her a move from Shotts prison to the female wing at Greenock Prison, where she met her soul mate Alex Stewart (formerly murderer Alan Baker) the recently crowned 'Miss Fitness' www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3169178-Transgender-prisoner-living-as-woman-wins-jails-Miss-Fitness-competition-by-country-mile

Alex's tireless advocacy for transgender rights brought these two together www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3237471-Transgender-prisoners-in-Scotland-progress-report

Sadly they have now been separated due to them 'touching and groping in front of the other prisoners.', with Sophie shipped out to HMYOI Polmont, which has separate accommodation for male young offenders and adult women like Sophie (there are also female prisoners at Edinburgh, Greenock and Grampian)"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242178-Transgender-killers-split-up-by-prison-chiefs

Also discussed:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242264-Transgender-murders-in-Scottish-womens-prison

R0wantrees · 13/08/2018 15:59

From the BBC article:
"James Morton is the manager of the Scottish Trans Alliance, which assists trans people in various situations - including behind bars.He says: "The prison service isn't daft. They scrutinise each case carefully.
"Before any eventual move, there is very careful risk assessment, full exploration of the person's history and current circumstances and painstaking preparation."
We don't know how often transgender prisoners ask to move prisons, or how often those requests are agreed to."

Recent article :
'Bearded Aberdeen paedophile jailed for downloading vile baby sex pics starts secret life as woman after transitioning in Scots jail: An outraged mum whose son was murdered by a paedo has demanded a legal change over Christyl Knight’s new life as a woman'
(extracts)

"James Morton, of the Scottish Transgender Alliance, said: “Our understanding is that transitioning does not erase your past if you’re a sex offender.

“You have to give your new name to police. Trans people usually encounter greater suspicion. I don’t think it helps people blend in.”

Also quoted in the article Claude Knights (recently retired CEO Kidscape)
"The con is desperate for a fresh start but child protection expert Claude Knights said: “Allowing these individuals to hide a secret past is a dangerous practice.”

She added: “It’s not unusual for sex offenders to want a new identity but this is the most disturbing case I’ve heard of.

“When someone, so soon after getting out of jail, is trying to change not just their name but their sex and appearance too, it sounds like they’re trying to hide rather than reform.”

Echoing her calls, child protection expert Claude Knights said: “Anyone who’s fuelled the vile trade in indecent images of children and therefore contributed to their sexual abuse should not be allowed to change their name.”

www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/3006679/paedophile-jailed-transgender-christyl-knight-christopher-nobile/

Who is James Morton from Scottish Trans Alliance?
Prison governors, Francis Crook (Howard Reform League and Claude Knights (retired CEO of Kidscape) have all stated concerns based on professional experience which Morton seemingly dismisses.

LangCleg · 13/08/2018 14:48

Ok, so going into the FPW post...

The BBC article says

James Morton is the manager of the Scottish Trans Alliance, which assists trans people in various situations - including behind bars. He says: "The prison service isn't daft. They scrutinise each case carefully. Before any eventual move, there is very careful risk assessment, full exploration of the person's history and current circumstances and painstaking preparation."

So this is what trans lobby groups are saying, even as they campaign for self-ID.

This is an extract from government guidance for dealing with trans prisoners (PSI17/2016 section 6.3):

There may be exceptional cases where it is necessary to refuse a transfer to the female estate for a transgender (male to female) prisoner with a GRC. This can only happen if the risk concerns surrounding the prisoner are sufficiently high that other women with an equivalent security profile would also be held in the male estate.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/care-and-management-of-transgender-offenders

As FPW point out:

Since we have no current examples of women deemed too dangerous for the women’s estate we have no bench mark of what an equivalent security profile for a transgender prisoner would be. What we do know, however, is that the male-born transgender prisoner and double child rapist, Jessica Winfield, was not considered too dangerous for a women’s prison and is currently serving their 23 year sentence at Bronzefield prison. Winfield was reportedly moved temporarily into isolation last year for sexually assaulting other inmates.

So, at the same time trans lobby groups are campaigning for self-ID, they are also telling us there is no problem with male trans prisoners in the female estate without mentioning that this is mostly due to not having self-ID currently or that there have already been adverse events.

This article is laughably biased. And dangerously so, since it purports to be a fact-checking item.

LangCleg · 13/08/2018 13:37

www.facebook.com/fairplayforwomen/posts/460649344345214

Fair Play For Women not at all happy about this.