BBC reality check on trans prisoners

I find it incredible that this living as a woman thing entitles a man in prison to demand and be given dressing up clothes and make up to indulge his fetish.

The whole of Annex A from that document is an eye-opener.

Also the glossary has loads of terms which include the word gender, but it does not define 'gender', as is usual for this type of document. It all seems very familiar.

The definitions and terms presented in this glossary are taken from the Government Equalities Office ‘Providing services for transgender customers’, Gendered Intelligence ‘Trans Awareness’ and the Women and Equalities Select Committee Inquiry into Transgender Equality report.

I find it incredible that this living as a woman thing entitles a man in prison to demand and be given dressing up clothes and make up to indulge his fetish. With the state tht most prisons are in and the treatment of prisoners in general it is amazing that somehow these men are treated as special ....how and why is this happening. Brilliant fact checking here by all of you . The results are frightening .

Is there a link to Annex A? Is Annex A the elusive tick list of exactly what constitutes 'living as a woman'.

Because that, in theory, should show the entire issue up for the sexist, ignorant nonsense it is.

I'd love to know how they determine the 'strength of the evidence' they talk about.

There's a link to the document 17/2016 that CaitlynsCat was quoting from on this page.
www.justice.gov.uk/offenders/psis/prison-service-instructions-2016
I can't link directly because it's a Word document.

Annex A is on page 28.

The evidence is the usual stuff:
Full evidence is holding a GRC or applying for one.
Strong evidence is:
Medical:

• Advice from GP
• Advice from Gender Identify Clinic
• Diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria
• Medication / Hormone treatment
• Psychological assessment confirms discomfort with birth gender
• Gender reassignment surgery

• Presents in the gender identified with
• Change of name and appearance
• Use of prosthetics
• Self-address and gender association
• Consistent use of gendered spaces
• Day to day living i.e. bank cards and other ID forms in acquired gender

Additionally:
A5 Where transgender prisoners who identify as gender fluid or transvestite wish to express their identity on an intermittent basis, prison staff must establish with the prisoner the degree and level of expression of gender identity. This may range from minor changes to appearance (e.g. wearing of nail varnish, minimal face make up and prosthetics) which may be accommodated without further action. If the expression of gender identity is more profound (e.g. use of wig, heavy make-up) this may require a security assessment and an additional photograph.

Items used to present in the relevant gender
A6 Transgender people, particularly those who have not undergone surgery or extended hormone therapy, may use various items to assist with their presentation in the gender they identify with. These can range from sophisticated prostheses to padded bras. Regardless of their level of sophistication, access to them can only be restricted in exceptional circumstances. IEP is not a justifiable reason for restricting access.

Use of name
A9 All transgender offenders covered in this policy should be asked to confirm the name they wish to be used consistent with the gender they identify with. For offenders who identify as gender fluid or transvestite who wish to be called by a different first name when expressing a different gender identity, agreement should be sought via a voluntary agreement subject to risk, security and operational assessments.

My thoughts exactly!

Is there a link to Annex A? Is Annex A the elusive tick list of exactly what constitutes 'living as a woman'.

Oh please let that exist. Please please please.

Turph

Excellent email

Thanks Andrew Gilligan

Much to my surprise I got into conversation with an aquaintance's DH the other day. Andrew Gilligan has enlightened him to the TRA agenda. Must say it was very liberating to be able to talk to someone about it who didn't have a Can You Say That? look of alarm on their face

Ceri Jenkins who wrote the petition is the Equality Officer at Bath Spa University.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41384473
Bath Spa again

Andrew Gilligan from The Sunday Times has summed it up -

"48% of trans prisoners counted by MoJ are sex offenders, FOIs find. Current proportion of sex offenders in the prison population as a whole? 19%."

"Almost half of trans prisoners counted by the Ministry of Justice are sex offenders, FOIs find - confirming @fairplaywomen and Sunday Times research. The BBC did the FOIs, but clearly didn't like the result - downplaying it in typically mealy-mouthed way."

twitter.com/mragilligan

My online complaint, mostly stolen from other posters (sorry):
About 15% of the prison population is serving a sentence for sex offending. If 60 of 125 trans inmates are in for sex offending, the raw data says trans inmates are 320% more likely to be sex offenders than the prison population as a whole. There are currently almost three times as many imprisoned male sex offenders as there are women in prison. Taken to extremes, self-id would skew the female crime figures massively, as the attack on the tube recently showed. "Trans" includes cross dressing straight men. 80-95% of trans women have a penis and wish to keep it, this is from the government's own data. Most female prisoners are convicted on non violent offences and the Prison Reform Trust states 57 per cent of female inmates have been victims of domestic violence, while 53 per cent have experienced emotional, physical or sexual abuse as a child. None of this relevant info was in the article. No mention of the extreme nature of some trans activism. Also no mention of Jess Bradley, who has been consulted several times by govt and is under investigation by her union for flashing her penis for online dares, publishing questionable cartoon paedophilic porn etc. The reality check was anything but.
None of what I mentioned is partisan, it is factual. The omission of relevant detail on a contentious subject such as this, with a govt consultation underway and massive implications for the Equality Act and any sex-segegated services, is unforgivable from a public broadcaster with a mandate to inform.

"According to Amnesty International, globally, LGBT prisoners and those perceived to be LGBT, are at risk of torture, ill-treatment and violence from other inmates as well as prison officials."

This is a problem and needs to be addressed by prisons. Lots of things in prison are a problem and need to be addressed by prisons.

Putting men at high risk of violence / sexual assault in with the women is not a reasonable answer. Loads of men are at high risk for one reason or another. The answer is improving prisons. See also, suicide rates in young offenders institutes. +++. So many issues.

Re Tara Hudson's petition cont. :

cerianjenkins.com/

"Founder of the Gender Equality Network (_GEN). Stonewall School Role Model. Campaigns manager of #ISeeTara, #NotACompliment, and #SelfCareAware. Campaign Bootcamp graduate. Founder of the #RechargeAndResist project. Member of the B&NES Independent Equality
Advisory Group, and the Challenging Homphobia, Biphobia, and Transphobia Group.

I’m a columnist for DIVA Magazine, and my campaigning work has been featured in/on: The Independent, The Guardian, BBC News, New Statesman, Metro, the Telegraph, ITV, Buzzfeed, Huffington Post, the Express, the Mirror, Attitude Magazine, Gay Star News, Pink News, and more. I have also written for organisations such as The Fawcett Society and the Women’s Equality Party. "

recent threads:
Fawcett Society:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3311428-Why-are-Fawcett-staying-so-silent-Are-they-afraid

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3310443-Fawcett-Society-Live-stream-from-5-30pm-Courage-Calls-Ask-her-to-stand

WEP:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3318961-Ultimate-betrayal-by-the-WEP

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3325882-WEP-conference-questions-for-panel-of-trans-rights-advocating-barristers

150,000 people signed the petition to free Tara Hudson or place them in a womans' prison (including MPs)

this was the petition started by Ceri Jenkins:
www.change.org/p/bath-magistrates-prison-govenor-of-hm-prison-bristol-british-judicial-system-stop-transgender-woman-tara-hudson-from-being-sent-to-an-all-male-prison-in-bristol

(extract)
"Trans campaigners estimate that there are between 20 and 30 trans individuals in UK prisons at any time, and that they are some of the most at-risk members of the incarceration system. In fact, transgender women in male prisons are 13 times more likely to be sexually assaulted than in the general population, with 59 percent reporting sexual assaults, according to a frequently cited US study.

According to Amnesty International, globally, LGBT prisoners and those perceived to be LGBT, are at risk of torture, ill-treatment and violence from other inmates as well as prison officials.

Trans people are also at a much higher risk of mental health issues than the rest of the populace. In 2014, a survey found that 48% of trans people under 26 said they had attempted suicide, and 30% said they had done so in the past year, while 59% said they had at least considered doing so. By comparison, about 6% of all 16- to 24-year-olds say they have attempted suicide, according to the Adult Psychiatry Morbidity Survey."

www.theguardian.com/society/2015/dec/03/transgender-woman-who-was-sent-to-male-prison-is-freed

Ceri Jenkins who wrote the petition is the Equality Officer at Bath Spa University.

"Founder of the national Gender Equality Network. Stonewall School Role Model. Columnist for DIVA Magazine. Campaign lead for #ISeeTara, #RechargeAndResist, and #SelfCareAware. I've also enjoyed running an award-winning blog covering current affairs and opinion pieces, as well as contributing to the likes of The Independent, the BBC, and The Huffington Post."

from thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3330210-Violent-yob-41-who-stabbed-man-in-the-liver-during-noise-row-at-apartment-block-will-serve-two-year-sentence-in-an-all-womens-jail?pg=4

The headbutt of a barman was the 8th offence iirc.

Actually it was a string of violent crimes, not just one. Long record.

Also Tara got that short sentence for a fairly brutal assault on a barman IIRC. So if short sentences are supposed to mean innocuous and non violent they are barking up the wrong tree.

And in any case the 'short sentence' prisoners would be out of prison by now, given that PSI 17/2016 was effective from 1/1/2017, so their point on all these unidentified 'short sentenced' transpeople doesn't really make much sense.

Tara Hudson was one of those 'short sentence' prisoners. Sentenced to 12 weeks and out after 40 days. Tara managed to make quite a fuss about going to a male prison, despite Tara's short sentence.

Where a transgender offender expresses a view of prison location that is not consistent with their legally recognised gender the offender must be asked to provide evidence of living in the gender with which they identify (see chart in Annex A). The strength of this evidence must be considered within the context of a Transgender Case Board together with all known risk factors before a decision is made.

Is there a link to Annex A? Is Annex A the elusive tick list of exactly what constitutes 'living as a woman'.

Because that, in theory, should show the entire issue up for the sexist, ignorant nonsense it is.

I'd love to know how they determine the 'strength of the evidence' they talk about.

CaitlynsCat doing a much better job of factchecking than the BBC there.

if you have a GRC or are even 'starting the process' of applying for one you can go into the female estate

That is ridiculous. This would include people who were rejected for a GRC. Do we know the rejection rate?

What does 'starting the process' include?

Also do they record the numbers of prisoners 'starting the process' of applying for a GRC as trans? We know they don't record those with a GRC.

And in any case the 'short sentence' prisoners would be out of prison by now, given that PSI 17/2016 was effective from 1/1/2017, so their point on all these unidentified 'short sentenced' transpeople doesn't really make much sense.

YY.

Yes I think the BBC are talking shit.

The point they might have is that the guidelines date from 2016 after the 2015 furore about violent thug Tara 'seven inch surprise' Hudson, so for EXISTING prisoners perhaps it wasn't the case.

But do that they would have to work out how many prisoners predate these guidelines, what the old guidelines (PSI 7/2011) were, and so on.

And in any case the 'short sentence' prisoners would be out of prison by now, given that PSI 17/2016 was effective from 1/1/2017, so their point on all these unidentified 'short sentenced' transpeople doesn't really make much sense.

No matter how you cut it, the numbers strongly suggest that among the population of prisoners who are trans, there is a disproportionate number of sex offenders with a greater proportion being present than in the prison population as a whole. And these are nearly all, or all, men.

It might be difficult to quantify this exactly, but there's a definite likelihood it is there.

This wouldn't have been a problem in the past but the big new risk factor is that male trans prisoners are pushing to be allowed into the female prison estate, they are getting a great deal of popular support from some quarters, and in the face of this support politicians and the prison system seem to be turning a blind eye to the risks.

In the face of this to bleat on about "we can't be sure of the exact numbers so we can't really say anything at all" is just gobsmacking.

This implies that in fact the transgender case conference is not a rare thing for the lifer locked up for years, but in fact an automatic process for every transgender prisoner, to be conducted within 3 working days.

Yes I was thinking that. Surely for such a vulnerable prison population it would be carried out for all. Which in turn would mean the BBC are talking out of their arse.

PSI 17/2016:

"Transgender offenders must be asked their view of the part of the prison estate (i.e. male or female) that reflects the gender with which they identify. It must be explained to the offender that decisions to locate in part of the prison estate which is not in accordance with their legal gender (or best available evidence of gender where legal gender is not confirmed), can only be made following a local Transgender Case Board (either during pre-sentence report preparation or within three working days of reception into custody).

If the prisoner’s view accords with their legally recognised gender this must be recorded and they must be located accordingly. Exemptions apply to women offenders (whether or not transgender) where the risk posed to other offenders and/or staff prevents location in the female estate (Further information is contained in paragraph 6.3 and Annex B).

Where a transgender offender expresses a view of prison location that is not consistent with their legally recognised gender the offender must be asked to provide evidence of living in the gender with which they identify (see chart in Annex A). The strength of this evidence must be considered within the context of a Transgender Case Board together with all known risk factors before a decision is made. Each offender must be assessed on a case by case basis and discretion may be applied following a Transgender Case Board. Transgender offenders must be allowed to live in the gender they identify with during this process. (See section 5 below).
"

In other words:

(a) if you have a GRC or are even 'starting the process' of applying for one you can go into the female estate
(b) if you are legally male but state that you identify as female, a case board MUST be convened.

What the BBC may be arguing is that people who are ActuallyTrans, but legally male, are stating that they are male, and hence no case conference ever arises, since they both state that they are male and lack a GRC.

However, they don't provide any evidence for this - if you identify as female, why would you not state this on going into prison?

Otherwise they appear to be talking a load of bollocks.