Muslim rights vs Transgender rights

The whole thing of her being Muslim is not really relevant.

I don’t want there to ever be a situation where someone can demand that a woman touch their cock and balls or they will sue them.

It reminds me of a case in the news a while back where a religious Christian couple were in trouble for refusing to bake a cake for a gay couple's party as they said they didn't approve

Yes because baking a cake is exactly the same and touching someone’s penis.

I reserve the right to refuse any customer at any time, giving no reason.

You would be at risk of being in breach of the law if you apply this right in a discriminatory fashion though. The law does fetter your discretion in this way if you run a business.

DS is at a very diverse school and they had their gender workshop last week (featuring the gender bread person no less). This has run the last 3 years and each time DS, 3 feminist identifying female friends and 3 sikh girls make gender critical points - thats all in the year group. The muslims either accept the ideology or do not speak out about this topic in school, whereas they do openly discuss different views on other matters.

I run a business and work one to one with people. I reserve the right to refuse any customer at any time, giving no reason. This is for my many reasons but I have been stalked 4 times with some serious consequences. A business has the right to refuse custom - but not to misgender someone, I think. So it is fine to say "I am not waxing your balls, find another salon" but not to refuse to do it because the person is trans, which is not what the beautician did.

I think that perhaps what sometimes happens is that someone who is transgender feels aggrieved because they have been refused access or being challenged for using women/ girls' school loos, beauty salons, changing rooms, refuge etc. They may express their distress online and find people there with both the political influence, media connections, social media power, legal expertise and/or finance to take up the claim.

It may also be the case that some activists deliberately seek out opportunities to challenge the policy in one place to set precedent elsewhere.

It is not dissimilar to how individual experiences have been picked up by some from religious lobbies who have then provided the backing eg the B&B owners who sought to refuse a gay couple This may have also been the case with the teacher who was disciplined for his use of pronouns in a class with a child who identified as transgender. (I can't be sure but this was my impression when he was interviewed on the daytime program with Philip Schofield?)

The comparison with the women with cancer diagnosis (upthread) is that she would also describe her distress / offence at being refused treatment but this would not prompt a powerful lobbying 'machine'.

Not if they are not qualified or trained the waxing of the balls. That would be dumb. Because of that soft skin, it would be a specialist field.

Yes agreed, that's why I said I didn't think the salon was in breach in this case. A more likely scenario where this would be a breach would be if they advertised ball waxing but not for black men.

There is equalities legislation such that it some situations a business would be in breach of the law for refusing to wax your balls.

Not if they are not qualified or trained the waxing of the balls. That would be dumb. Because of that soft skin, it would be a specialist field. So the salon could argue that point.

Frankly, I think these TRAs are going into these places (not places that specifically wax of the balls) and are prepped up to sue, when it goes horribly wrong.

Litigious is their middle name after all.

OP's post is quite misleading and should be reported, there is quite a difference between 'waxing legs' and a 'Brazillian'!

The salon describes the service clearly

"**THE FULL BRAZILIAN
OUR SPECIALTY - YOU'LL FEEL SMOOTH AND FREE LIKE NEVER BEFORE. REMOVES ALL HAIR WITHIN AND AROUND THE BIKINI LINE."

This sevice is clearly not the same if performed on someone with a penis. Are you supposed to wax their balls, shaft? It makes no sense.

Completely indefensible.

You can't make someone wax your balls, no matter who you are? Surely?

Well yes and no. There is equalities legislation such that it some situations a business would be in breach of the law for refusing to wax your balls. I don’t believe the salon is breaking any laws in the story described though.

Link:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3241837-Why-has-the-trans-lobby-been-so-successful?pg=5

Changing rooms:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3225459-Primark-Coventry-challenged-for-asking-trans-woman-for-ID-before-allowing-entry-to-female-changing-rooms

Women's Swim:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3126114-Hampstead-Heath-Womens-Pond?pg=1

School loos for girls:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3209839-The-Police-making-policy-for-schools

I was talking to DH about this last night and he was struggling to understand and said

"so, in layman's terms, someone who was born a male, but lives 'as a woman' is trying to legally oblige a muslim woman to wax their balls? You can't make someone wax your balls, no matter who you are? Surely?"

Which sums it up really doesn't it?

cf Refusal of treatments in salons / spas for women who have had a cancer diagnosis.

Being refused a treatment is a very common occurrence and any online forum where women with a cancer diagnosis meet will have posts describing the embarrassment / disappointment / frustration of being told that they cannot be treated. In some situations this can be a blanket refusal.

I'm not aware of any women in such situations suing. What is happening instead is that spas etc that have better provision are being identified, or individually people just find another salon.
Women are sometimes pre-warned through conversations with others that they may have to deal with this, it's still difficult though, the registration forms are usually exactly the same whether you are hoping to have a manicure, bikini wax or a full body massage.

www.theguardian.com/travel/2015/jun/23/spa-breaks-people-with-cancer-recovery-retreats

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5323043/Cancer-patients-treated-like-lepers-leading-spas.html

Phone book obviously

Tbf, whether his scrotum is male or female (now there’s a sentence that makes NO SENSE, but still), it’s still a scrotum, and a ‘Brazilian’ is a style of waxing performed on vulvas.

windsorstar.com/news/local-news/transgender-woman-files-human-rights-complaint-against-windsor-spa

This is a local news article.
The male owner of the salon has gone to the press to save his business.
In the article it says the male caller asked for a Brazilian. Owner said that only trained staff was on sick and Muslim woman wasn’t able to do it. (I assume she wouldn’t be trained even if she was able to treat male clients)
That seems reasonable enough to me it’s like phoning a dress shop and complaining they can’t sell you a car.
Why the caller couldn’t call the next salon in the phone box I don’t know.
So I do wonder if the complainant has taken this legal action to force the judge to say he’s a woman so his his genitals aren’t male to trump the Muslim woman’s objections.

"they will need to see what is defined as a woman in the Quran"

The understanding of that time & place was that Woman = Girl who has had her period, whether that's age 10 or 16.

I'm puzzled by the claim downthread that "within most forms of Islam itself the definition of women is flexible. Chances are if the trans woman had gone to another muslim salon, even next door, she would have been allowed". I really don't think so. What "forms of Islam" and how exactly is "definition of women flexible"?

Is it sick

Gosh i must have been tired

Ds has a beautiful pink trilby...i was obviously projecting

Religion, transphobia or homophobia

Unless she would have been perfectly happy to treat a different man this has absolutely nothing to do with transphobia.

Religion, transphobia or homophobia... much of a muchness

Not really. ‘Transphobic’ has come to mean merely disagreeing with an ideology, and therefore in danger of losing its value when identifying true discrimination. In any case, there’s a big difference between baking a cake, and performing a personal grooming service for someone, whether that is on their legs or genitals. Either involves intimate physical touching and being alone with the client. I believe no one should be under legal compulsion to do that.

it's really important to raise awareness with these groups - it's going to have a big impact on their ability to participate in public life.

It’s difficult to find a way to word this - but, from my secular perspective, much of conservative patriarchal religious practice seems to be designed to do just that, limit women’s ability to participate in public life and wider society, keep them in the home, keep them under the control of men (their fathers, brothers, husbands). I’m sure others would not see it that way, but it’s an interpretation as I said from an outsiders perspective from personal observation and interactions. So pursuing this avenue may not yield as easy an alliance as has been suggested. And the impetus for approaching Muslim women’s groups should be lead by concern for the rights and safety of women and girls, and how we (society) can best protect these, especially when it comes to intersections of religious or cultural practices. Not from a desire to booster numbers on any ‘side’, not that that’s what any PPs are meaning, but how things could easily come across if not very carefully worded.

Clearly there are Islamic feminists active, two mentioned already in this thread who have not just attended but spoken at WPUK meetings. It seems reasonable to approach these women and others who represent Muslim women’s groups and just ask what their views and needs are when it comes to GRA reform and be debate around gender self-identification and how the wider feminist movement can best support them.

A ManFriday event at a mosque may make the point very clearly, actually, but only if the activists involved were Muslim in the first place.

It was a Sack & Crack Wax he requested!!!!
I am shocked to hear that they were less than forthcoming with the news media and possibly the HR Tribunal when they filed their complaint about women saying no to them.

@Rufustheyawningreindeer Are you colour blind?! It's Blue!!!!

@MargeH @KirstenRaymonde It was a Sack & Crack Wax he requested!!!!

Where do genitals come into it? the OP said legs! I do think the link between this and homophobia is interesting. It reminds me of a case in the news a while back where a religious Christian couple were in trouble for refusing to bake a cake for a gay couple's party as they said they didn't approve. Sorry, on phone so can't link. It's not really much different here, is it? Religion, transphobia or homophobia... much of a muchness.

If I had any kind of an 'in' to religious communities such as Islam or orthodox Judaism I would certainly be letting them know what may be going to happen if the GRA amendments go through. I suspect, like most people, they have no idea and they would be staunch allies against this crap.

Is anyone on here a member of those faiths, or has discussed the GRA amendments in that setting & perhaps could get something off the ground?