How women act differently in the presence of men

Yes absolutely

I am always astounded when I realise how little DH is aware of sexism and yet how aware every woman I meet is. Even if they claim they're not a feminist or think sexism is dead, every single woman starts nodding along and relating when you actually start speaking about low level everyday sexism.

When I was doing my degree I got chatting with the postgrad student who was running the seminars about this difference and she said it happens every single time. You don't have to name it sexism/feminism (in fact she said it's less helpful if you do name it because it prompts people to put their emotional reactions onto the name) but you start talking about sexism and every woman in the class will be nodding along, enthusiastic, jumping in with ideas (because they've never seen or heard it discussed in a mixed space before, but they're usually young enough not to have experienced being massively shut down by men when they try) and the men sit there totally nonplussed, not really getting it, jumping in with one of those good old counter arguments we've all heard a million times. She said it always, always fascinated her.

Agree with that as well OldFossil.

It has come up a lot recently that most men are utterly unaware of the street harrassment / "minor" assault because men don't tend to do it if there is another man around. And of course more major stuff doesn't really get talked about at all even in single sex groups.

I think that the silence is starting to be eroded now and with that i hope will come an understanding of the extent of the problem, that it is all interconnected and that women and girls should not be expected to put up with it - and even be encouraged to see it as a "compliment" in some way.

I think men are protected from a lot of the things women have to talk about to each other. Hysterectomies, breastfeeding, infertility worries, pregnancy scares, sexism, the legacy of abuse or an assault, dealing with sexism at work... Men just haven't a clue really (what women have to deal with behind the scenes).

OMG yes grimble that is exactly what he's doing isn't it.

What a twat.

Norma how interesting - have messaged you :)

Seven: that swearing in front of women and then saying sorry is not genuine regret (which of course is not necessary). It's a not so subtle way of saying I'm a big man who is allowed to swear and am doing it show how macho I am, which is emphasised then by a faux apology to the little lady, which in turn shows that she is a special snowflake who is too delicate to be sworn in front of. So in one fell swoop he has boosted his ego and denigrated you while implying it was all accidental.

seven if I have your Vimto reference correct, I went to that institute. Many yearsago

i probably should swear less at work though and am trying. but that's kind on not the point

YY I swear like a trooper and always have. This bloke at work keeps saying thinks like "shit" and then going Oh Sorry Seven and looking all contrite.

This is sometimes immediately after me saying something like Of For Fucks Sake I've got this bastard meeting later and the people on the project are just sitting around on their arses not doing anything etc etc etc

It is VERY ODD.

He also does all that "oh shopping you'd know all about that" type stuff.

I am just like, has he even met me?

My colleagues say he is "old fashioned".

It is utterly bizarre.

Oh the "don't swear in front of the little women" stuff? Hate it.

I see that as an overt statement emphasising that we're different. I hate it. Not that I want to be sworn at. But 'fucking politicians' is normal speech.

Super, I don't think it's spied on - MNHQ have chosen a line on such moderation (which seems to be more "generous" than many sites) and if it's breached then they will delete without really focussing on the rest of the thread.

As a separate example, I just reported a post containing r**d - I agreed with the poster in question that the man being described was a total cockwomble but the language breaches guidelines.

(It wasn't me that reported CKD, by the way)

I find myself feeling apologetic in front of men if the subject veers to "girly" topics but have managed to control that (with the help of FWR!).

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing for men and women to have separate spaces (for purposes of comfort) as long as it doesn't limit opportunities. This old diehard sailor guy was giving us a tour of a submarine once and said "we didn't want women here spoiling our fun, I'll be honest". It made sense to me then but at the end of the day it's unfair to deny someone an opportunity bcs of how they were born. It's simple really.

Plus I've never understood this idea that men should modify their swearing in front of women. We're not precious little flowers. Swearing I don't mind half as much as sexism.

It feels so sinister that a thread like this with women talking about our reactions, feelings etc gets sort-of spied on with posts getting reported.

Send a message to MNHQ and ask via the report option and ask if she's been banned and if you can tell us all once they have answered?

Has CK been banned then? Or suspended? How do we find out?

I think the post breached MN rules on references to trans people.

Hmm, interesting topic. I realised long ago that there is a 'me' that I used in front of men, and then there is a more real version of me that I used in from of my female friends. It doesn't help that some men who I considered friends, ended up hitting on me, forcing me into finishing the friendship because they were married/attached.

As a young woman, I have done that whole flirty/giggly, I-not-as-smart-as-you thing in front of men, but wouldn't do that now. I have come to a point in my life where I want to be a more authentic me in front of all people, regardless of sex, but haven't worked out a solution for this particular issue yet. And I am not sure than some men (and indeed some women) are ready or open enough to be able to accept the real me .

Sorry, me again . I need the online equivalent of my mum to come on and tell me that it is time to go to sleep.

In my experience there is one group of women where the normal rules of women only groups does not apply and I am always concerned by the number of women who's only experience of all women's groups is such gatherings. That is the "wives and girlfriends" group. Can anyone imagine all the partners of their female friends being expected to get together and be friends. That they should have a "boys" night together whilst all us women have a night pass for some real fun. If partners of females meet and like each other then that is fine but they are not expected to get on in the way women are. In the WAG group the men are there in spirit if not in body and of course they solely dictate who can be a member. It is incredibly infantilising really.

Dreadful grammar and spelling, like I said lots of . Definitely won't be enough left for tomorrow's stew like I convinced myself when opening. It's my silly womanly way .

Apologies if I am taking this thread off on a tangent, I've necked the best part of a bottle of red and am beginning to feel the effect!

Women who prefer the company of men. The argument for this always breaks down into two parts:

Firstly: Women are shallow, bitchy, only want to talk about clothes, diets, babies and men . I know very very few women like this and they are equal in number to just as vapid men. The majority of women, like the majority of men, are fully formed human beings with a whole range of likes and dislikes and many interesting things about them.

But, it is the second part which most strongly hits me. Women are judgemental whereas men take you for who you are. So.... What shall we take from that, if men took women for who they are then sexism would not exists, women would be judged solely on our ability/personality.,So we have a paradox, what do you think is true Elephants are women being oppressed due to our sex or do men take all people on face value and not judge them by arbitrary criteria? If men are taking are only judging our individual personality and ability and not our sex then women must be inferior, apart from the special snowflakes like yourself of course. Of course let's not forget People of Colour too, the lovely non-judgemental men would not discriminate on something like skin colour, it's just that white, middle class men are so much fucking better than the rest of us.

PG - that sounds about right. The last time i was out with male only friends, we spent the whole drunken evening in a pub, basically discussing whether the Earth was getting lighter or heavier