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Original poster

Following on from the TERF thread...

635 replies

CailinDana · 15/06/2014 21:28

Trying to get my head straight on this. Surely the whole malarkey around transwomen wanting to be recognised as women even though they have penises will eventually actually help to break down the idea of gender?

What I mean is, if a person with a penis can be labelled a woman simply because they want to be labelled in that way, surely gender becomes meaningless as it tells you nothing meaningful about a person except perhaps the clothes they like to wear?

This is a half-formed thought, feel free to develop/challenge.

OP posts:
Original poster
CailinDana · 15/06/2014 22:08

Also, the whole thing with transwomen with penises expecting lesbians to be attracted to them and lesbians resisting this ridiculous fuckwittery - doesn't this also help to throw out the whole notion of gender? It sharply points out the fact that lesbians are not attracted to "femininity," which is a male, patriarchal notion of what women should be like, but to the actual physical bodies of biological women, their vulvas, their vaginas, their breasts. The trans idea that lesbians should be attracted to "women" with penises starkly shows up the misogynistic idea that women must like and revere penises and clearly shows men's horror at the idea that some women genuinely love a woman's body. It pushes lesbian sexuality out of the dark and into the spotlight and highlights in a very clear way that they are not "playing" at being lesbians - they do, genuinely, have no interest in a penis, no matter how much feminine costume surrounds that penis.

OP posts:
FloraFox · 15/06/2014 22:05

I agree it largely becomes meaningless but how does that stop the oppression of women based on their actual or potential sexual and reproductive labour? All it does, IMO, is obscure it and make it difficult to identify and dismantle.

Original poster
CailinDana · 15/06/2014 21:57

X-post, although I think my last post sort of addresses your question? But to develop further, if a man, with xy chromosomes and a penis can legitimately claim to be a woman, then surely "woman" is a meaningless term as it could apply to literally anyone?

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FloraFox · 15/06/2014 21:56

sorry cross-post.

the idea that someone with a penis can just claim to be a woman and then be treated as such will actually throw a lot of light for the general public on the issue of gender and perhaps expose it for the feeble construct it is - too optimistic?

Yes, I can see what you mean here. I think the more airtime is given to the post-modern aspect of gender theory, the more people will see that it is nonsense and that might help to break down other ideas of gender? My concern is that women's rights are being eroded in the meantime and (a) this is dangerous for women and (b) will we be able to get them back again?

Original poster
CailinDana · 15/06/2014 21:55

What I mean is, if the debate around female space is pushed far enough then I think it'll come down to "if you have a vulva you can enter here, if you don't get lost -" which, over a long period, could actually do a lot to strip away ideas of gender as what you'll be saying is, ok, we have two basic types of genitals (with some variations in between) and those genitals relate to nothing else to do with a person - they can wear dresses or suits, want to be called man or woman, it's all a matter of choice, we just restrict based on anatomy not on any notion of gender" - does that make sense?

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FloraFox · 15/06/2014 21:52

in the distant future, people just abandon the idea of gender, acknowledge we have different genitals and cater to that and don't associate any particular traits/ideas with those genitals

How would gender theory get to this point though or effect any change in power? It is embracing the idea of gender, not abandoning it. I like this image.

Following on from the TERF thread...
Original poster
CailinDana · 15/06/2014 21:51

Hmmm...I see what you mean Flora. So, the idea is that the idea of being trans reinforces the notion that you can have a "female" way of thinking (without actually being female) and so contributes to the whole "men and women are different" bollocks, thus justifying discrimination?

In spite of being horrified by the crap from some transactivists around expecting to be treated as women and being allowed access to female space etc I actually think it has the potential to be a good thing. So far, governments have responded as expected, by giving males (who claim to be trans) what they want at the expense of females. But, I think over time the idea that someone with a penis can just claim to be a woman and then be treated as such will actually throw a lot of light for the general public on the issue of gender and perhaps expose it for the feeble construct it is - too optimistic?

OP posts:
Original poster
CailinDana · 15/06/2014 21:45

Doesn't it detract from the power though, oddboots, ultimately? What I mean is, if a man can put on "female" clothes and then essentially be a "woman" doesn't it mean that the idea of "woman" doesn't exist, as it really doesn't refer to anything except a preference for a certain type of clothes (which changes with the times/fashion anyway).
That could either be a good or a bad thing, in the end. It could go either way - that women become even more of a nothing than they are now, or that, in the distant future, people just abandon the idea of gender, acknowledge we have different genitals and cater to that and don't associate any particular traits/ideas with those genitals.

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FloraFox · 15/06/2014 21:44

I think it cements the idea of gender as an inherent aspect of a person rather than being socially determined. The UN definition of "gender" is:

"the social attributes and opportunities associated with being male and female and the relationships between women and men and girls and boys, as well as the relations between women and those between men. These attributes, opportunities and relationships are socially constructed and are learned through socialization processes. They are context/ time-specific and changeable. Gender determines what is expected, allowed and valued in a women or a man in a given context. In most societies there are differences and inequalities between women and men in responsibilities assigned, activities undertaken, access to and control over resources, as well as decision-making opportunities. Gender is part of the broader socio-cultural context."

Rather than gender becoming meaningless, I think it will be reinforced and, even worse, excused. The justification for sex discrimination has usually been variations on the theme of "lady brain". In my own profession (law), women were barred from the profession because the female nature was considered unsuited to adversarial nature of the work. Women had to argue that these ideas of a female nature were wrong in order to get into the profession. Gender theory relies on the acceptance of a female nature, brain, spirit, essence or something of that sort. I don't think gender would become meaningless but the reality of women's oppression based on their sex would become invisible. If it can't be identified, it can't be dismantled.

OddBoots · 15/06/2014 21:34

It does to an extent but it also cements the idea of gender too as it can't be related to biological sex, so gender must be something powerful in itself if one can be a woman without being female.

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