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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Following on from the TERF thread...

635 replies

CailinDana · 15/06/2014 21:28

Trying to get my head straight on this. Surely the whole malarkey around transwomen wanting to be recognised as women even though they have penises will eventually actually help to break down the idea of gender?

What I mean is, if a person with a penis can be labelled a woman simply because they want to be labelled in that way, surely gender becomes meaningless as it tells you nothing meaningful about a person except perhaps the clothes they like to wear?

This is a half-formed thought, feel free to develop/challenge.

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CailinDana · 17/06/2014 11:22

It has been a very interesting experience for me to see the "transition" of a male friend of mine from "typical" (sports-watching, beer-drinking, manual-working) male, to something approaching a female when he became a SAHD to a girl. Three years ago, he used to think his wife (who was on ML with their new baby girl) did "nothing" all day, used to complain about her waking him when she got up with the baby every night (and never ever did a night feed) used to expect dinner on the table and his shirts ironed etc. Then, as his wife was the main breadwinner she went back to work and he became a SAHD, and now he says pretty much the same things as a woman does, about feeling invisible, and his interest in feminism is very high.
Nothing physical about him has changed at all. He is a tall, very physically strong man. But he has gained a new perspective on the world. It started when he said to me "I feel invisible," having been a SAHD for about 6 months. I said "that's how women feel all the time." His attitudes have changed dramatically over the last three years, in fact I have never seen such a change in a person. First he turned all his sexist attitudes on himself, and he expected the same unreasonable things from himself as he did from his wife, in the belief that, being a good person, his expectations were realistic and so if he expected them of a SAHM he should expect them of himself. It's only over time that he has seen that his expectations were rooted in sexism and he has come to see his own sexism from the inside so to speak. And he has rejected that sexism. He is in the process of becoming a true feminist ally because he has an inside perspective so to speak.
However, he is still very aware of being a man and the advantages that continues to confer on him. He acknowledges that though he has experienced the devaluing that women experience he can never ever understand what it's like to feel under threat from the opposite sex.

It strikes me, Kim, that you are seeing being a woman from an inside perspective and you're not liking it much either. You talk about the difficulty of being a dissenting voice etc - these are things women experience all the time, from day one. I think you have to accept to a certain extent that if you are going to become a woman you are going to take on all the disadvantages of being a woman, you will not get special treatment. And being a woman sucks. Sorry about that.

On top of that, being a man, you have never experienced the same level of threat that biological women have experienced. In fact, you are a threat. And women will treat you that way, for our own safety. So you have the double whammy of the shittiness of being a woman and the lack of acceptance from both men and women of being trans. It must be tough.

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kim147 · 17/06/2014 11:19

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kim147 · 17/06/2014 11:16

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allhailqueenmab · 17/06/2014 11:13

Kim, here's my guess about what you want.

  • in real life - the ability to live, work and play unharrassed and with equality
  • in theory - in discussion spaces like this - an absolutely paramount and unchallenged victim status that "trumps" everything else and all other concerns

I support your right to the first, but frankly I am terribly bored and rather irritated by the second

SmallPress · 17/06/2014 10:51

It's those few abusive, vocal trans activists online, though, who are screwing things up for everyone else, trans and non trans women alike.

kim147 · 17/06/2014 10:51

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ReallyFuckingFedUp · 17/06/2014 10:49

BUt what do you actually want in terms of practicalities? Should all bathrooms be unisex? Should there be a third option? Should people get to choose? I think a third option would be fair but I think that would be against what most trans people would choose?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 17/06/2014 10:48

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kim147 · 17/06/2014 10:48

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kim147 · 17/06/2014 10:47

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SmallPress · 17/06/2014 10:45

Kim, I haven't seen anyone here saying the hounding of young trans girls on social media is a good thing. In fact, I have seen many women, here and elsewhere, speak up against that kind of thing, even when they are getting very nastily attacked themselves. So, what's your point?

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 17/06/2014 10:41

It's not very nice, I'm sure. It is not the same as physical or sexual assault.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2227562/Colleen-Francis-Outrage-transgendered-woman-permitted-use-college-womens-locker-room-exposing-himself.html

DO you believe that biological women have a right to feel safe? DO you think it is fair for a person with a penis to show it to teen girls? For many women coming in to a private place where they are meant to feel safe only to find someone who by all appearances is a man.... you would expect to get raped.

kim147 · 17/06/2014 10:29

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ReallyFuckingFedUp · 17/06/2014 10:26

Are laws being put in place to protect the right to abuse transactivist kim? Because laws are being changed that put and have put women in danger. It's not just trading stories. HOw many transactiist have been actually harmed by radfems?

I posted a link to the wrong story above, i'll try and find the proper one

SmallPress · 17/06/2014 10:20

Being a different voice is very hard sometimes.

That's very true. I've seen women (some radical feminist, some only labelled so) hounded off social media altogether, and others absolutely crushed under the constant barrage of being called a bigot, a racist (usually by white people, who amazingly don't apologise if the woman in question points out she isn't white), a TERF, being told repeatedly to die in a fire, having people post pics of knives, etc, at them. I have occasionally peeked over the parapet, but dear god I don't know if I could stand to run into the line of fire like they have. I take my hat off to them.

kim147 · 17/06/2014 10:19

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kim147 · 17/06/2014 10:16

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ReallyFuckingFedUp · 17/06/2014 10:16

Kim you asked what we want form trans women, and it was answered.

You also said we shouldn't pay attention to what "activist" say they want and talk to regular people.

Well, I asked you a question, you're a regular person?

Do you think the story above is fair? Do you think the transwoman has an advantage in that story?

I think she does. I think biology but also being raised and living as a man (especially a man in the Navy) result in her being unfairly advantaged at least and quite dangerous at worst as basket ball is a very hands on sport. Do you think it is fair for her to play?

Do you think this person has a right to call teenage girls bigoted and demand they use the same changing room as a person with a penis who fancies women? www.infowars.com/girls-threatened-with-hate-crime-charges-for-complaining-about-transgender-bathroom-harassment/

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 17/06/2014 10:13

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kim147 · 17/06/2014 10:12

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SmallPress · 17/06/2014 10:10

Of course - those sites don't represent the views of radical feminists. Do they?

I don't know the sites you mentioned, kim, but they aren't the only respesentation of radical feminism online. Eg, I have seen plenty of women who have been labelled "TERF" (whether it fits or not) stand up in public when a trans woman is being hassled, and offer their solidarity. It's easier to get a picture of how things are when there's different voices online, and when they aren't afraid to challenge the current orthodoxy, whatever it is.

kim147 · 17/06/2014 10:09

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SmallPress · 17/06/2014 10:06

If you mean the trans activists on twitter and tumblr: then to be at the top of the heap, and have people hanging on their every word. To be celebrated and have the power to be as obnoxious as they like without censure.

Actual trans activists and allies: I don't know, because I so rarely see them talk or write, but I imagine just to be able to live their lives as they like, without hassle from anyone else, just like the rest of us would like.

kim147 · 17/06/2014 10:04

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kim147 · 17/06/2014 09:59

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