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Original poster

Following on from the TERF thread...

635 replies

CailinDana · 15/06/2014 21:28

Trying to get my head straight on this. Surely the whole malarkey around transwomen wanting to be recognised as women even though they have penises will eventually actually help to break down the idea of gender?

What I mean is, if a person with a penis can be labelled a woman simply because they want to be labelled in that way, surely gender becomes meaningless as it tells you nothing meaningful about a person except perhaps the clothes they like to wear?

This is a half-formed thought, feel free to develop/challenge.

OP posts:
Original poster
CailinDana · 17/06/2014 12:11

No, Kim, sorry I really didn't get you. But now I'm thinking...trans is more a rejection of being male than an embracing of being female?

OP posts:
ReallyFuckingFedUp · 17/06/2014 12:11

Really of course they can, but traditionally in a discussion if you ask someone a question and they answer. It is rude to then say, well thanks for that but I won't be further engaging.

And I can choose to comment on that in any way I feel as well

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 17/06/2014 12:09

Literally with the exception of my daughter, I don't think I know of any women who I am close to that haven't been sexually assaulted. Even the ones that I am not that close to but who I have known a while. They have ALL been sexually abused.. the majority of genuine MtF people who want access to women's changing rooms are probably as any other person who was born a male... but it's the ideas that go along saying "women don't need safe places away from men" . It's a slippery slope to me

kim147 · 17/06/2014 12:08

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Original poster
CailinDana · 17/06/2014 12:04

No Gosh, there's nothing gleeful about it at all. I wish it were the case that women weren't treated shittily, given that I am a woman and there are lots of women I love in the world. What I'm saying is that, unfortunately, if you choose to be a woman, you are choosing to be treated like shit by the world at large. Which is why we need feminism, as Kim stated.

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Original poster
CailinDana · 17/06/2014 12:02

You don't want to be accepted as a woman? Oh, sorry, I thought that was part of being trans. When talking about "passing as a woman" what does that mean if it doesn't mean being accepted as a woman?

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almondcakes · 17/06/2014 12:01

Kim, I am asking about the majority of trans activists, not the majority of trans people.

GoshAnneGorilla · 17/06/2014 12:01

Cailin - there's something a bit gleeful to your tone there. Are you saying it's OK for everyone, including other women, to treat kim "shittily", because " that's what she signed up for?"

Really - people can contribute to a discussion however much they please.

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 17/06/2014 12:00

I see the demand that people with male bodies be allowed in to female spaces as patriarchy buffy. I don't know about other's views but I am personally not really worried about mtf people who have transitioned going in to female changing rooms etc, especially mtf who are attracted to men.

But I do find it upsetting that right now anyone can demand access to female space.

kim147 · 17/06/2014 11:58

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Original poster
CailinDana · 17/06/2014 11:55

Do you also see, Kim, why it is hard for women to accept you, when you haven't experienced the very real danger they have experienced? And also because you can't relate to having periods, to being told to cover up, to being the focus of sexism all your life?
You are trans, and that brings with it its own very difficult challenges. But those challenges are not the same as the ones women face. Do you agree with that?

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kim147 · 17/06/2014 11:55

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almondcakes · 17/06/2014 11:52

I have met very few trans people in real life. None of them have ever given any impression of believing the kind of stuff that is all over social media.

It would be true that you could cherry pick from any kind of activism and show extreme views. But if that is the case for transactivists and third wave feminists promoting trans activist ideas, where are the sites where the mainstream of these groups write? Where are the third wave/trans activists explaining trans issues who don't agree that it is discriminatory to label female reproductive organs in a school text book, that abortion is not a women's issue etc?

Where are this majority who hold a different view?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 17/06/2014 11:52

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kim147 · 17/06/2014 11:52

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Original poster
CailinDana · 17/06/2014 11:50

That's fair enough. But it strikes me that the things you describe - not being accepted, not having a voice, etc, they are things that women experience all the time. If people view you as a woman, you will get that treatment forever more.

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kim147 · 17/06/2014 11:47

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Original poster
CailinDana · 17/06/2014 11:45

Kim, do you accept that if the world views you as a woman, then you will be treated as a woman, ie, shittily?

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kim147 · 17/06/2014 11:45

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ReallyFuckingFedUp · 17/06/2014 11:44

*irrelevant

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 17/06/2014 11:44

My worry is that if we have to accept that "sex" has no literal meaning and that females aren't females that all hard won rights will be lost.

We have already seen gender triumph over sex. I want to be able to send my daughter in to a girls changing room and feel safe. I want to say that as a woman I have been discriminated against and not because of my gender. My gender is relevant and I don't perform femininity in even the laziest way.

kim147 · 17/06/2014 11:42

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ReallyFuckingFedUp · 17/06/2014 11:40

If you come on to a chat thread where discussion is really the only option. it's a bit bizarre to say you have not intention of discussing it..once you have had you say.

Why are you here if you don't want to discuss it, would you prefer to get your feelings across with some sort of interpretive dance?

I can't see any reason for radfems to have any problem whatsoever with trans people if they weren't trying to put themselves in female spaces or expect access to female bodies.

kim147 · 17/06/2014 11:30

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ReallyFuckingFedUp · 17/06/2014 11:27

So Kim basically you are saying you can ask everyone else (and we can answer) whatever you like, but you won't be answering any questions. How very useful to have you on a thread. What an interesting discussion and can I say how unusual it is for a woman to be told how a conversation is going to work and how it won't be on my terms.