Following on from the TERF thread...

That was Flora

But basically, yes.
This is why the patriarchy doesn't seem to mind transgenderism much. It's no threat to the status quo.

Sorry, Flora, that was your quote.

"don't want gender to disappear, they want it to continue but for them to choose while stereotypes to play out"

Yes, yes, that's it exactly! That's what upsets me about this whole business. Thanks, Tunip.

It's terribly naive as well, this idea that if we could choose we'd all be making a totally free choice.
As if there wouldn't be societal pressure, pressure from people who thought due to your behavioural characteristics you'd make a better boy or girl, pressure from the father who despises girls, etc.

There's a dystopian YA called Divergent where society is divided by personality and at 18 you get to pick whether you're a Dauntless, an Erudite, an Amity, etc. Obviously it is horrible because people don't fit into neat boxes, whether or not they get to pick them themselves! The idea that gender would be great as long as you can choose feels a bit like that.

Yes that line jumped out at me too, Tunip. Not analysis that for girls, the expectations of gender that are imposed on girls because of their sex does not work out for the best.

Also, no consideration of the person to whom the child is handed. Is that ever the person with the penis? Was the impregnator ever a person with a vagina? No recognition that sex is the basis of the reproduction of our species. That is real and unchanging. In an ideal world, it would be the only relevance of sex and all the gender nonsense placed on people because of their actual or potential role as either a mother or a father would disappear. It seems like people like the author of that piece don't want gender to disappear, they want it to continue but for them to choose while stereotypes to play out.

What I find so striking about the article is that the author clearly thinks gender is great and the only problem arises if the child is transgender: 'it usually works out for the best—but sometimes, it goes horribly wrong'.
No sense that actually, this system that restricts children is bad in itself.

i find that article so problematic,the assumption that being a girl means anything about the girl aside from describing her chromosomes, or genitalia

that if an infant has a vagina etc, to call them female limits who they can become, what their character will be

i did find it kind of funny that in an article about how wrong it is to identify infants by their sex, the author assumed the doctor who dared so as a man

Just read the Slate article

"The doctor holds your child up to the harsh light of the delivery room, looks between its legs, and declares his opinion: It's a boy or a girl, based on nothing more than a cursory assessment of your offspring's genitals."

I see what they're getting at. Really, I do. But you can't wish away the fact that, in 99.9% of cases, "It's a girl" is not an opinion. The word 'girl' specifically describes a young human with XX chromosomes, no penis, and a vagina. The fact that it may also define her is a social problem which can't be resolved by ignoring her physical composition or refusing to name it.

What does the author imagine happening when the baby's at risk of genetic disorders? Tell the parents "it" may develop somesuch condition because "it" has XX chromosomes. As soon as you've said "It has XX chromosomes", you've said "It's a girl"

Gah!

This nonsense isn't furthering the cause of anybody with genuine gender dysphoria, is it?

Really good analysis here which encapsulates a great deal of what has been said on this thread.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/wpath-president-elect-jamison-green-calls-for-lesbian-bookburning/

The transgender movement is also the first “social justice” movement whose platform is based on maintaining and contributing to the oppression of women, lesbians and gays.

The transgender movement demands the “right” to LIMIT THE FREEDOM of women, lesbians and gays.

Those whose liberation is being undermined by the transgender movement have a right and an obligation to critique it.

The article also quotes Sheila Jeffrey's excellent analysis;

in order to support transgenderism , gender has to be supported. So the subordination of women has to be supported in order for transgenderism to be supported.

I think the best argument against male brains and female 'lady brains is the trans activists. All those 'lady' brains acting so typically and horrifically male with a twisted view on what it is to be a woman.

Yeah. Especially when the disagreement with feminists takes the form of threats of sexualized violence.

GurlwiththeCurl, I really feel for you and your family member. You are in impossible position.

I definitely believe 'wrong body' syndrome exists - I don't think anyone's disputed that here? And I accept that I can't know what it feels like. I did have severe dysmorphia in my anorexic teens; it must be a hell of a lot worse than that, and that was bad. But I share everyone else's concern about stereotypes - particularly female stereotypes, I think - being seen as determining gender, rather than deriving from it. Where does that leave the many women who, like SuperLoud, get mistaken for men, and the men who 'look feminine'? There are millions more, of both sexes, who don't match the stereotypes. Nobody can say we're not really women/men on that basis. Who creates these stereotypes, anyway? (Let me guess: the patriarchy, or at least its butch members!)

I'm not finding the right words for everything that's making me uneasy about the currents state of transgenderism. I think I'd be more comfortable if it were possible to do away with binary 'gender'. Although it's the norm in mammals, it's not even a hard and fast natural rule.

I quite liked Facebook's 52 gender choices! A transwoman (etc) should be able to self-identify as such, surely, instead of insisting they're a woman/man now. Having to build extra toilets and prison cells isn't really a good enough reason to evade that development.

QueenStromba, good ideas but sadly I'm not in a position to do anything like that to help. I'm bedridden at the moment and can only reach out using social media. Can't help worrying about how all this will work out over the next few years. I hope that things can be reversed in the future if she changes her views.

Trying to stay calm and not seethe.

I think the best argument against male brains and female 'lady brains is the trans activists. All those 'lady' brains acting so typically and horrifically male with a twisted view on what it is to be a woman.

'Cis' women know your place, it's down there at the fucking bottom.

Are you in a position where you can take her out to car shows etc so she can see that it's not just a boy thing? Or could you turn up to family events dressed androgynously/without being made up so she can see that how her mother and sisters behave and dress as women isn't the only way that women can behave and dress? It really just seems like she's rejecting the over girliness of her close family so a female influence of a non-girly girl kind could really help her. As I said up thread, adult women have trouble getting themselves sterilised, also the only way to get a double mastectomy as a woman who doesn't identify as male is to have breast cancer or BRCA gene.

To sterilise children and remove their breasts before they've had a chance to really get to know themselves is just wrong. I knew from a young age that I didn't want children but, quite rightly, there's no way I'd have found a doctor who would have sterilised me at 18. Why then is it ok to sterilise someone at 18 if they feel wrong in their bodies?

Dr Norman Spack is a class action law suit waiting to happen.

Superloud - thanks for your comments. I was worried that I might get flamed for my lack of coherence apart from anything else.

QueenStromba - your last paragraph puts my position into words much better than I managed. Many thanks :)

I see what you mean Gurl. This is one of my big problems the transgender movement - rather than breaking down societal expectations of gender it is reinforcing them. There's a chance that your family member would have still identified as trans before trans became so mainstream or if she was born into a family where it's not an issue if girls are into cars and motorbikes rather than manicures. I suspect that in a less gendered environment though she'd just be a tomboy who could grow up to be a lesbian.

The fact that on top of this she's on puberty blockers when 80% of adolescents with these feelings grow out of it just makes it all the worst.

I understand your conflicted feelings - you want to be supportive of your young relative but aren't convinced that this course of action is the best thing for her (apologies for putting words in your mouth if that isn't actually your position).

I really dislike the 'you can't misgender someone' stuff. People misgender me all the time. It's not the worst thing in the world.
I find it maddening to have someone expect to be called 'he' etc when they're visibly female because it's a bit like gaslighting - expecting someone to act as though something is fact when it isn't.
Then there's the fact I fight to be recognised as female when I'm not necessarily visibly feminine - seems counter-intuitive to argue that, then act as though masculinity or lack of femininity is the same as maleness.

I think your feelings are entirely understandable.
It seems like you've done everything you can to put forward an alternative point of view sensitively but questioning someone else's parenting decision's fraught at the best of times.

I'm not concerned about the reaction on this thread, but about disclosing some difficult family stuff. Also, I can't really get my thoughts in order about what I actually think. It is all very confusing.

My dilemma is that a family member tried to kill herself at around the age of ten and then told her parents that she had wanted to be a boy for as long as she could remember. To cut a long story short, she has had counselling and has seen expert doctors and now, several years later, has embarked on therapy to suppress puberty. She has changed her name and dresses as a boy.

I am not as close to the family as I would wish and have tried to be as supportive as I can, but I am so conflicted about this. As a feminist, but not very well read, the whole issue has torn me apart. I worry that she is confusing her need to be herself (interested in cars and motorbikes, not interested in traditionally "feminine" pursuits, unlike her sisters and mother), with a need to change her sex. I have sons and have tried to talk to her about how my lads are not stereotypical macho men, that they have a mix of different interests and characteristics. I feel that she has been brought up in a very different household to mine, where her sisters and mother are obsessed with looks, manicures, hair, clothes etc., and she and her father go to motor shows.

I am sorry if I am not explaining this very well and am I not using the correct terms. I am just very scared at what will become of her. See, I even find it hard to call her "him". Am I just being old fashioned, prejudiced and unfair?

I have not posted much on this thread, but have been avidly lurking. I think it is great that MN have allowed this conversation and debate. There seem to be so few places on the interweb where this can happen.

Found this thread a couple of days ago and I've read every single word with a mixture of fascination and horror. I was originally confused by a term "terf" which sprang up on twitter and this thread has been so enlightening. Hope it doesn't get deleted, if anything, it should be moved to classics.

Haven't got time to engage in detail with this thread but am enjoying the discussion immensely!

I find I have to teach the po-mo stuff, and I use it, but as an irriotant, a tool for digging out the analysis (I could say a lot more about binaries and dichotimies as oppressive tools of patriarchy, and the values of questioning them) but Gah! I'm writing against a deadline about that dominant and oppressive category: women artists! How very dare I?

So just to say thank you & fascinating reading.

We don't bite GurlwiththeCurl. The posters you've seen us put down on this thread are the same posters that turn up on every thread about the subject and try to shut down discussion. After this happening a dozen or more times we've kind of lost sympathy.

These threads are the debates that should have happened pre-2004.