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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Following on from the TERF thread...

635 replies

CailinDana · 15/06/2014 21:28

Trying to get my head straight on this. Surely the whole malarkey around transwomen wanting to be recognised as women even though they have penises will eventually actually help to break down the idea of gender?

What I mean is, if a person with a penis can be labelled a woman simply because they want to be labelled in that way, surely gender becomes meaningless as it tells you nothing meaningful about a person except perhaps the clothes they like to wear?

This is a half-formed thought, feel free to develop/challenge.

OP posts:
Beachcomber · 17/06/2014 21:28

In total agreement with what Donkey and Flora say in answer to Buffy's question re women not identifying as the oppressed sex and attempting to transgress gender thereby.

If only!

kim147 · 17/06/2014 21:28

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kim147 · 17/06/2014 21:25

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FloraFox · 17/06/2014 21:22

Grin Buffy

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 17/06/2014 21:19

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CrotchMaven · 17/06/2014 21:19

Oh, that was an odd autocorrect! I meant a gender recognition certificate.

Surely I could get one? Because it would be a societal recognition that I performed as a different gender than I have been assigned. I don't (yet do:-)) have a problem with that. But given that I am oppressed because of my sex, that doesn't move me on much, does it?

Waffling now...

Beachcomber · 17/06/2014 21:17

DonkeySkin, that quote gives me goosebumps.

Right-Wing Women should be on the syllabus of every Women's (or gender!) Studies course in the world. Had it been written by a man, it would probably have won a Nobel prize or other manly gong.

It should be considered a major work of socio-political analysis and of searing intellect and a major contribution to humanity, similar to the Communist Manifesto. An amazing book in its incisive clarity and incredible pace.

But of course it is radical feminism and Dworkin. And therefore taboo.

Can't recommend it enough to the women here. If you like a feminist lightbulb, this book will blow you away.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 17/06/2014 21:13

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CrotchMaven · 17/06/2014 21:13

buffy, I've often wondered that. In the face of a rapist, would shouting "I'm a man!" work as a form of defence?

I've also wondered about transitioning trans men and what constitutes living as their preferred gender (ugh at the sex/gender ambiguity AGAIN). I spend a portion of the year a bit off piste, in that I am living largely outwith my normal life. (deliberately vague) When I am doing that, I entirely cast off my usual trappings. No make up, no hair removal, head hair tied up in the main (and if I were doing it full time, I would cut it short), clothes to suit the environment (so usually shorts or trousers). In a sense, I live as a man. What more would I have to do to get a great certificate?

I don't know where I'm going with this, tbh, but I feel that there's a point in there somewhere!

DonkeySkin · 17/06/2014 21:10

I wonder what would happen if all women elected to identify as male or agender, from this point onwards. Would this end our oppression on the basis of sex, I wonder...

Buffy, I don't think so.

And that is because the biological reality on which women's oppression is based would remain. You would still have a class of persons who can gestate and bear children, and a class of persons who cannot, and this would continue to shape social reality and power dynamics between men and women. The material conditions (female reproductive capacity, and male control of such) on which 'gender' is built can't be identified away. And for feminism to have any hope of succeeding, these conditions need to be understood in relation to the ideological structure (gender) which naturalises and justifies this control.

What's actually happening with the trans/queer/postmodernist takeover of feminism is that sex is being disappeared as a meaningful concept, and gender reified as eternal and natural. Which is why I disagree with the OP that trans politics will lead to the eventual breakdown of gender. What is actually happening is the material basis for women's oppression (biological sex) is becoming obscured and unnamable.

Beachcomber · 17/06/2014 21:04

Buffy, don't apologise for your analysis or sharing of lived experience. Don't put it down. It's a bad habit that is socialized into women and we must shake it off.

I have very fond and respectful memories of a certain feminist who told me not to apologize for my testimony or female perspective. It was good and wise advice and I just wanted to mention it to you because women deserve to be heard and there is no trivial analysis in feminism. The personal is political and all that Smile and Sad

FloraFox · 17/06/2014 21:03

Buffy in a word, no.

As the actual or potential providers of sexual and reproductive labour, men as a class would disregard our identity and have regard to the material reality of our bodies. We would, in the meantime, have lost the ability to describe and understand our oppression.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 17/06/2014 20:47

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DonkeySkin · 17/06/2014 20:44

Were these women asked their gender identity before being raped? Were men who think they are women also raped, impregnated and rejected by their families?

Exactly Flora. That's why it's so frustrating when people say that woman is an identity. Can women and girls around the world identify their way out of the things that are done to them because they are female? Why are they choosing to identify this way in the first place? It's a stance that is cruelly oblivious to the reality of what sex-based oppression actually is, and what's unnerving is that so many women who call themselves feminists seem completely fine with it.

FloraFox · 17/06/2014 20:18

Donkey that is so correct. Thank you for posting that.

Look at this from Adam Boulton from Sky News saying this week that challenging rape as a weapon of war is "a little bit trivial":

twitter.com/Claire_Phipps/status/478137213986033664/photo/1

Boulton makes no mention of the number of women raped nor how many of them were also murdered or died as a result (including as a result of rejection by their families). That is all trivial compared with the lives of the soldiers, mostly men. The numbers don't matter, it doesn't even need to be mentioned.

Were these women asked their gender identity before being raped? Were men who think they are women also raped, impregnated and rejected by their families?

DonkeySkin · 17/06/2014 20:12

'I am a woman and 'cis' can fuck off to the far side of fuck.'

MTE, grimbletart Grin

Beachcomber · 17/06/2014 20:11

Thanks for the Flowers and link to the book review Flora.

Book review would be funny if it wasn't a man mansplaining what the women should be thinking and doing (in a mainstream publication).

How comforting that a man feels "comfortable in ignoring" a women's analysis. Not.

How fabulous for a man to tell us it's time for "trans inclusive feminism". If said man actually understood the issues he would be able to grasp that trans AKA gender inclusive feminism is an oxymoron and that "cisgender" is absolutely not used to "describe people who identify with the sex they were assigned at birth". Hence why it is gaslightingly called cisgender not cissex.

Knob. People who don't understand the difference between sex and gender and how the two operate in society should be reading more Sheila Jeffreys, not feeling comfortable in dismissing her.

Although of course he doesn't have to care because as pointed out by flora, transmen aren't trying to take over male space, rights, politics, etc. And even if they were, men would just laugh at them or rape them, just as they do with gender compliant gals.

CailinDana · 17/06/2014 20:06

Doctor - at the risk of sounding critical and making you feel like you just can't win (!) I think you're probably taking it too far. All you really need to do is to be aware of your threat status and take that into account. You don't have to sequester yourself away from women - what does that achieve? We all have to live in the world together, the important thing is that we do so with consideration and compassion.

OP posts:
DonkeySkin · 17/06/2014 20:06

Agree very much with queenmab, Flora and Beach.

“The essence of oppression is that one is defined from the outside by those who define themselves as superior by criteria of their own choice.”

Beach this Dworkin quote reminded me of another passage of hers from Right-Wing Women, which seems hideously apt in light of the fact that so many people, including women themselves, are so willing to embrace the notion that 'woman' is an ontologically meaningless concept ('a woman is anyone who identifies as a woman').

“The accounts of rape, wife beating, forced childbearing, medical butchering, sex-motivated murder, forced prostitution, physical mutilation, sadistic psychological abuse, and the other commonplaces of female experience that are excavated from the past or given by contemporary survivors should leave the heart seared, the mind in anguish, the conscience in upheaval. But they do not. No matter how often these stories are told, with whatever clarity or eloquence, bitterness or sorrow, they might as well have been whispered in wind or written in sand: they disappear, as if they were nothing. The tellers and the stories are ignored or ridiculed, threatened back into silence or destroyed, and the experience of female suffering is buried in cultural invisibility and contempt. Because women’s testimony is not and cannot be validated by the witness of men who have experienced the same events and given them the same value, the very reality of abuse sustained by women, despite its overwhelming pervasiveness and constancy, is negated. It is negated in the transactions of everyday life, and it is negated in the history books, left out, and it is negated by those who claim to care about suffering but are blind to this suffering.

“The problem, simply stated, is that one must believe in the existence of the person in order to recognize the authenticity of her suffering. Neither men nor women believe in the existence of women as significant beings. It is impossible to remember as real the suffering of someone who by definition has no legitimate claim to dignity or freedom, someone who is in fact viewed as some thing, an object or an absence. And if a woman, an individual woman multiplied by billions, does not believe in her own discrete existence and therefore cannot credit the authenticity of her own suffering, she is erased, canceled out, and the meaning of her life, whatever it is, whatever it might have been, is lost. This loss cannot be calculated or comprehended. It is vast and awful, and nothing will ever make up for it.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 17/06/2014 20:02

That's Sad DT.

grimbletart · 17/06/2014 19:55

Great analysis above. I have a cruder (as in simplistic) way of looking at it.

I was as a kid what is irritatingly called a tomboy because I was interested in doing the stuff normally associated with the opposite gender. As an adult I've maintained the feeling that I am more at home with stuff normally associated with the opposite gender and often feel out of it with female friends who are discussing fashion, shopping, baking, babies etc. (even though I am married with DCs) and feel more at home with a pint and talking about sport with male friends.

So, if I put on a lounge suit and took myself and my vagina into a male space could I call myself a man and expect all the blokes there to accept me as one? Could I hell. So why do these penis owners who do the same in a woman's space expect us to accept them? Bugger off.

And no, I refuse to call myself a ciswoman either. I am a woman and 'cis' can fuck off to the far side of fuck.

I could call myself a purple spotted green alien for a change perhaps. Would it make me one? No.

If that makes me a bigot, you know what? I don't care.

Sometimes I think we are in such danger of being 'open minded' that our brains fall out and so careful to avoid the sensitivities of an extremist minority with identity issues that we don't look after ourselves enough. It's another case of apologising for our very existence.

BriarRainbowshimmer · 17/06/2014 19:23

Why not contact her if she would love to see you?

DoctorTwo · 17/06/2014 19:14

Yes BillNTeds, even women I know. My XW told me a schoolfriend of mine would 'love' to see me and I won't contact her, just in case, because she was in an abusive relationship with another mutual schoolfriend, and that could be triggering for her.

Her abusive fuckwit actually kicked one of my teeth out in class. I'd dropped my pen and bent down to retrieve it. He kicked me in the face, I grunted, the teacher asked me what was wrong and I answered "nothing" and bled silently onto my desk after spitting my lost tooth out.

She and I were good friends at school and again in our 30s after she escaped him. We lost touch after my divorce unfortunately. I will not contact her, just in case.

That sounds quite self pitying, doesn't it? :o

BriarRainbowshimmer · 17/06/2014 19:10

Your "garbage" is my rights, status, existence and humanity.
Yes.
Great comments Beachcomber & others

FloraFox · 17/06/2014 19:04

Thanks beach

Everyone is so busy dancing around trans feelings that they don't want to talk about the reality of their experience with transwomen. The transwomen I know or have encountered (especially the "lesbians") have exhibited male entitlement and various aspects of personality disorders, particularly narcissistic rage. The transmen, on the other hand, have not.

I'm sick of men telling women what to think about gender politics when it has no negative impact on them. Look at the entitlement on display here where a man feels able to state that Sheila Jeffrey's book is "not a meaningful contribution to feminist theory".

www.newstatesman.com/culture/2014/06/it-s-time-end-divisive-rhetoric-sex-and-gender-and-create-trans-inclusive-feminism