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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Following on from the TERF thread...

635 replies

CailinDana · 15/06/2014 21:28

Trying to get my head straight on this. Surely the whole malarkey around transwomen wanting to be recognised as women even though they have penises will eventually actually help to break down the idea of gender?

What I mean is, if a person with a penis can be labelled a woman simply because they want to be labelled in that way, surely gender becomes meaningless as it tells you nothing meaningful about a person except perhaps the clothes they like to wear?

This is a half-formed thought, feel free to develop/challenge.

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CailinDana · 17/06/2014 22:20

Also, I don't see a movement among people with other types of dysmorphia to gain recognition as part of another group. For example, I haven't seen those who've removed legs wanting to be part of support groups for people who've lost limbs due to bombings or polio - because their experiences are totally different. I don't understand therefore why transwomen want access to women's space. They are a separate group of people, with different experiences. Those experiences are valid, and they have every right to talk about them, but imposing restrictions on women makes no sense.

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CailinDana · 17/06/2014 22:17

I have to admit that I see an element of disordered thinking in the transgenderism. There is a type of body dysmorphia in which the sufferer wants to remove a healthy limb, and feels compelled to do so, such that there have been very sad cases of people sitting on railway tracks in order to irrevocably damage a leg so it must be removed (once surgeons have refused to remove it as it is healthy.) I can see that the person genuinely wants to remove the leg, and genuinely believes that their lives will be better after it is removed, but there is no rational explanation for needing to remove the leg beyond recourse to mental illness.

I'm starting to see transgenderism in the same way. There seems to be an attempt to normalise it, but really, wanting to remove parts of your body and obliterate your identity isn't normal.

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almondcakes · 17/06/2014 22:11

I may be going off at a tangent here. We all presumably agree that sexual orientation, and the ability to determine that for yourself is very important. For women, I think that pregnancy and the ability to determine whether or not you want to be pregnant, by whom, how many times and when is just as important as sexual orientation.

And that is why it is important that we recognise the reality of biological sex, isn't it? Because while that reality exists (and it can only be approached through a constructed power structure), the kind of body you are born into determines whether or not pregnancy is going to be the major experience by which you will or will not reproduce yourself if you are female. And in any kind of socially constructed world, that is a whole different kind of experience involving different decisions than those made by people who reproduce themselves through impregnating others.

I can't imagine how it would be helpful to people to obscure that fact in any kind of world.

And it seems to me that the obscuring of the fact mainly applies to obscuring issues around women. The default isn't that most people could get pregnant; the default in our society is that most people won't, because the default human is male. Or when genderqueer people performed womanhood, a lot of them would do so with a strap on baby bump, but they don't seem to.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 17/06/2014 22:09

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 17/06/2014 22:07

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CailinDana · 17/06/2014 22:03

I don't particularly want to be a woman either. I don't fit at all with the idea of "woman" - I have no interest in how I look, in fashion, in make up, I have hairy everything, I work in a scientific field etc etc. Apart from the fact that my body functions in a female way I'm not really a "woman" and actually I find it weird to be called a woman or to be expected to read things like "woman's weekly" or enjoy "woman's tv" like Loose Women. It doesn't chime with me at all. But I'm not a man, and have no desire to be.

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FloraFox · 17/06/2014 21:59

Great stuff, thanks Donkey , especially the last paragraph.

kim147 · 17/06/2014 21:59

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CrotchMaven · 17/06/2014 21:59

There's a massive difference between not wanting to be the sex of your body and wanting to be the opposite sex.

I didn't want to be a woman. Or rather, I had a complex relationship with my mum as a child and couldn't relate me becoming a woman with the role model she provided. Puberty was very difficult for me, particularly periods. That didn't mean I was a man, though.

DonkeySkin · 17/06/2014 21:55

I think there is a lot of value in feminist post-structuralist epistemology. Which I define as sociologists / anthropologists do, namely as treating all truth claims to equal scrutiny, not privileging one method (positivism) above the rest.

Buffy, I don't know much about post-structural feminism, but my Honours thesis dealt in part with the post-structuralist and postmodernist critique of positivism in the social sciences, and I came down on the anti-relativist side. While there is certainly merit in questioning the positivist method, especially WRT to the way Western anthropologists have positioned themselves as objective observers of other cultures, I maintained (and still maintain) that we can nevertheless make judgements on the relative merits of conflicting truth claims.

Basically, I took a dim view of postmodernism then, and I take an even dimmer view of it now. Back then, my objection to it was based on finding the pure relativist stance essentially pointless, but since reading this brilliant radical feminist essay on the political function of postmodernism, I now see it also as a reactionary and sinister phenomenon, which pretends to champion marginalised voices, but in fact undermines the ability of oppressed groups to name the truth of what is happening to them (because there is no truth, right?)

What I find most interesting about postmodernism is not what postmodernists say about it, but how it functions in the real world (and I'm assuming there is one) in terms of social change. The effects of the intimidating and obfuscating writing style, of inhibiting generalizations and so the formation of commonalities between people, of ruling out binary thinking and so eviscerating impassioned convictions, and of overemphasizing individual rather than collective action is to create a multilayered system of disconnection, silencing, and disempowerment.

What is also interesting is the timing of the advent of postmodernist theory. As Somer Brodribb and Barbara Christian point out in Radically Speaking, postmodernism came into vogue in academia just when the voices of women and people of color began to assert a significant presence there. It seems that when groups other than those in power attempt to say things, suddenly truth dissolves into meaninglessness. This is a little too coincidental for my taste.

I suggest that postmodernism is nothing more than the new relativism and that relativistic theories emerge as a new line of defense when power structures are becoming threatened. It is a very insidious and crafty defense because it mouths the words of liberation while simultaneously transforming them into meaninglessness. The real agenda is masked in clever obfuscation--to preserve the status quo by rendering dissent meaningless and ineffective, unable to gather any social or political power. Notwithstanding postmodernism's purported intention to deconstruct social norms and by so doing, make way for changes, its actual effect is to atomize peoples' experiences, obliterate the potential for solidarity, silence articulate and forthright speech, and render passionate convictions meaningless. It leaves us unable to condemn anything as wrong or oppressive with clarity, certainty, or conviction.

offourbacks.net/index.php/featured-articles-1/85-let-them-eat-text-the-real-politics-of-postmodernism

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 17/06/2014 21:54

Ok then.

I did think that a transsexual was a person taking steps as far as the medical profession would allow or support, to alter their primary and secondary sexual characteristics, by hormones, surgery, hair removal etc to be as close as possible to those of the opposite sex, on the basis that the person felt very strongly that their body's appearance did not match their "mental world view" of themselves as far as sexual characteristics were concerned.

I have used language as carefully as I can above. My understanding is that the definition of trans (transgender and transsexual) by those who self-define as trans is much broader than the above.

FloraFox · 17/06/2014 21:50

So yes to observable physical genital arrangements, but no to the immutable truth of what these mean in terms of gender and roles.

I agree with this entirely. How do you think Butler came to the conclusion that biological sex itself is a construct? This is becoming a more prominent part of the trans narrative so that a man is biologically female with female body parts because he describes his gender identity as female. I know you don't agree with this but I'm interested in your insight into how that theory is constructed.

kim147 · 17/06/2014 21:49

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kim147 · 17/06/2014 21:48

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 17/06/2014 21:47

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 17/06/2014 21:46

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almondcakes · 17/06/2014 21:45

I believe that dysphoria about the appearance of the body is very real. There are lots of kinds of body dysphoria.

I don't understand what that has to do with anyone else other than the person suffering from it. I can see why it would be alleviated by surgery; I don't see why it would be alleviated by social validation, name changes, believing you have a male or female brain and so do I etc. Surely a trans woman has a brain that tells her her body should be female. Nothing about that at all is a shared experience with women as a group.

EverythingCounts · 17/06/2014 21:38

well, transsexuality suggests a change of sex, so of the physical condition of being a particular class of person. Which brings it back to the bodily change identified with medication and surgery.

I've not thought this through in detail, but I think that in our postmodern world many of us have become accustomed to the idea of identity as play and performance. So perhaps for some trans people it's about being attracted to the idea of performing their identity differently and seeing the opportunity to do that both in depth and in public. Thus a social reason. That would fit with the trans people who say that for them it's not about dysmorphia.

When did the shortened form of 'trans' start to be used / become popular, can anyone tell me?

CailinDana · 17/06/2014 21:37

What do people think transsexuality actually is?
Not a bloody clue.

Why has there been a massive increase in referrals?
No idea.

Do you think there's a medical reason or a social reason?
No idea.

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kim147 · 17/06/2014 21:37

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BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 17/06/2014 21:36

"What do people think transsexuality actually is?"

I don't know. I thought I did, but it seems I do not.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 17/06/2014 21:34

"Why has there been a massive increase in referrals?"

On no more solid evidence than "my opinion", I'm going to go with "it's become more widely known and somewhat more easily discussed".

"Why would someone go from the most privileged class there is to being oppressed?"

Again, my opinion - but I am not sure how many MtoF trans think about that. Many people with penises and many with vaginas don't, after all.

FloraFox · 17/06/2014 21:33

kim I'm not engaging in those questions. You will take the answers too personally and will not engage in an open discussion. I agree with you that it's hypocritical of you to ask.

FloraFox · 17/06/2014 21:30

inappropriate cross-post. Grin directed at buffy's previous post.

Buffy I think your understanding of post-structuralism and post-modernism goes far far beyond most people's (including me, obv). My problem with it is that without the right level of understanding, it is used as "anything can mean anything, nothing has a meaning, there is no truth". From a sociological perspective, I can almost get my head around that and I do think there is a reality of sociology, certainly in how it affects, shapes, limits people's lives. However, there are surely some things that are materially true and not warranting equal scrutiny (e.g. the sun rises in the east and sets in the west). I would put biological sex in that category. It is demonstrably true that a person with a vagina is not capable of impregnating any other person and is most likely capable of being penetrated with a penis and a person with a penis is not capable of being impregnated and is most likely capable of penetrating another person with the penis. There may be intersex or other sexual or physical dysfunctions that may mean a person with a vagina cannot gestate or a person with a penis cannot impregnate but the reverse will never be true. A person with a penis is either male or intersex and a person with a vagina is either female or intersex.

It's hard to believe we are actually having these discussions. It seems so blindingly obvious that it's almost hard to find the words to express something so basic. However we do seem to be in a position, brought about by post-modernist theory, that we have to have this discussion.

almondcakes · 17/06/2014 21:29

I think it is the job of trans activists to explain what transsexualism is. I am still waiting for a link to a mainstream trans activism site where all will presumably explained...

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