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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Following on from the TERF thread...

635 replies

CailinDana · 15/06/2014 21:28

Trying to get my head straight on this. Surely the whole malarkey around transwomen wanting to be recognised as women even though they have penises will eventually actually help to break down the idea of gender?

What I mean is, if a person with a penis can be labelled a woman simply because they want to be labelled in that way, surely gender becomes meaningless as it tells you nothing meaningful about a person except perhaps the clothes they like to wear?

This is a half-formed thought, feel free to develop/challenge.

OP posts:
kim147 · 18/06/2014 14:11

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SmallPress · 18/06/2014 14:06

Yes, of course I took that personally. I can see what you are trying to do, here, but since almost everyone has been quite, quite clear that they know it isn't all trans women - but it IS the visible trans women - who are putting forward the dangerous, misogynistic, homophobic ideas many of us object to, frankly it looks like you are just trolling.

kim147 · 18/06/2014 14:00

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Beachcomber · 18/06/2014 13:59

You do know surgery just does not happen. It takes a very long time. You have plenty of time to think about it. Of course, chances are you might have killed yourself or self harmed yourself extensively by the time it's offered as the waiting times are so long.

But the (paltry) research that exists suggests that GRS does not resolve suicidal feelings long term. Which leads many of us to wonder if what we are dealing with here is a psychiatric/mental health issue which has nothing to do with male/female brains being born into the "wrong body" - particularly as the notion of the existence of "male" or "female" brains does not stand up to scrutiny.

IMO a person who is suicidal or self harming because they are not allowed body mutilating cosmetic surgery (or have to wait for it) needs extremely sensitive and careful mental health care.

SmallPress · 18/06/2014 13:57

Quite honestly - feminists should stick out of what they think is best for trans people.

..what? What? Have you not read or listened to anything on this thread? Did you not read what I said?

Kim, I've always taken you as a moderate, but now I'm not so sure.

almondcakes · 18/06/2014 13:54

I will also point out that self harm isn't, of itself, a psychological disorder.

almondcakes · 18/06/2014 13:49

I know surgery does not just happen because I've had various family members who have waited a long time, in agony, and in some cases at risk of death or disability, for surgery.

As I have said, I don't know much about gender reassignment, but I would assume it involved counselling as it is such major treatment.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the thread, TBH.

Beachcomber · 18/06/2014 13:49

feminists should stick out of what they think is best for trans people.

And why might that be?

Increasingly born women are seeking GRS because they are non gender compliant and attracted to women. Women are having body mutilating surgery as a reaction to lesbophobia, the rigidly enforced social construction of gender and rigidly enforced sexist stereotypes and harmful sexist cultural practices.

If that isn't a feminist issue I don't know what is...

So Beachcomber - would you deny me HRT and surgery?

I don't have the power to deny you anything Kim. Your question is a moot point and comes across as making this discussion aggressively personal.

If you are asking me if I agree with GRS, the answer is no, I absolutely do not. I think it is a medical scandal and a lie. I think it is a brutal body mutilating practice which consists of experimentation on human bodies and smacks of "playing god". I think it is a deeply misogynistic and homophobic practice and is teetering on eugenic. I think it breaks the Hippocratic oath and is negligent at best and a crime against a person's humanity at worst.

vesuvia · 18/06/2014 13:47

kim147 wrote - "It's amazing how many times we are asked if we are male or female. Even things where you would have thought it's not important - they ask. Why is it so important? Why do they need to ask so many times?"

Perhaps it's to enable the questioner to apply the patriarchally-determined "appropriate" level of discrimination.

kim147 · 18/06/2014 13:42

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almondcakes · 18/06/2014 13:40

Kim, I don't think anybody should have any form of surgery for psychological reasons without some form of counselling. I would not recommend people have surgical abortion (as opposed to earlier drug induced abortion) without counselling either. I wouldn't ban consensual medical treatment of adults.

But those are not my decisions to make, because I'm not an expert on medical ethics.

I do think as a society we should view surgical and hormonal treatment of non conforming individuals as having a long, dark, very recent and ongoing history and that is relevant to talking about these issues.

almondcakes · 18/06/2014 13:32

The parallels would surely be:

Homophobic doctor:
Homosexuals are real and are a small minority.
Many of them, including children, should have medical physiological treatments to make them better- including hormone treatments and genital surgery.
Only being attracted to people of the same biological sex is something that needs to be cured as it is harmful to society.

Trans activist:
People whose gender does not match their sex are real and are a small minority.
Many of them, including children, should have medical physiological treatments to make them better - including hormone treatments and genital surgery.
Only being attracted to people of the same biological sex is something that needs to be cured as it is harmful to society.

(Old school) feminist:
People whose gender does not match their sex are real and are the majority.
It isn't a medical condition or a pathology. No cure is needed, but neither is a ban on cosmetic surgery needed if people want it.
There is nothing wrong with people being solely attracted to people of the same biological sex.

kim147 · 18/06/2014 13:26

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kim147 · 18/06/2014 13:25

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WhentheRed · 18/06/2014 13:24

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kim147 · 18/06/2014 13:24

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Beachcomber · 18/06/2014 13:23

online.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120

It's behind a paywall so here is a copy of the content.

Transgender Surgery Isn’t the Solution

A drastic physical change doesn’t address underlying psycho-social troubles.

By Paul McHugh

A man who looks into the mirror and sees himself as a woman
Getty Images

The government and media alliance advancing the transgender cause has gone into overdrive in recent weeks. On May 30, a U.S. Department of Health and Human Services review board ruled that Medicare can pay for the “reassignment” surgery sought by the transgendered—those who say that they don’t identify with their biological sex. Earlier last month Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said that he was “open” to lifting a ban on transgender individuals serving in the military. Time magazine, seeing the trend, ran a cover story for its June 9 issue called “The Transgender Tipping Point: America’s next civil rights frontier.”

Yet policy makers and the media are doing no favors either to the public or the transgendered by treating their confusions as a right in need of defending rather than as a mental disorder that deserves understanding, treatment and prevention. This intensely felt sense of being transgendered constitutes a mental disorder in two respects. The first is that the idea of sex misalignment is simply mistaken—it does not correspond with physical reality. The second is that it can lead to grim psychological outcomes.

The transgendered suffer a disorder of “assumption” like those in other disorders familiar to psychiatrists. With the transgendered, the disordered assumption is that the individual differs from what seems given in nature—namely one’s maleness or femaleness. Other kinds of disordered assumptions are held by those who suffer from anorexia and bulimia nervosa, where the assumption that departs from physical reality is the belief by the dangerously thin that they are overweight.

With body dysmorphic disorder, an often socially crippling condition, the individual is consumed by the assumption “I’m ugly.” These disorders occur in subjects who have come to believe that some of their psycho-social conflicts or problems will be resolved if they can change the way that they appear to others. Such ideas work like ruling passions in their subjects’ minds and tend to be accompanied by a solipsistic argument.

For the transgendered, this argument holds that one’s feeling of “gender” is a conscious, subjective sense that, being in one’s mind, cannot be questioned by others. The individual often seeks not just society’s tolerance of this “personal truth” but affirmation of it. Here rests the support for “transgender equality,” the demands for government payment for medical and surgical treatments, and for access to all sex-based public roles and privileges.

With this argument, advocates for the transgendered have persuaded several states—including California, New Jersey and Massachusetts—to pass laws barring psychiatrists, even with parental permission, from striving to restore natural gender feelings to a transgender minor. That government can intrude into parents’ rights to seek help in guiding their children indicates how powerful these advocates have become.

How to respond? Psychiatrists obviously must challenge the solipsistic concept that what is in the mind cannot be questioned. Disorders of consciousness, after all, represent psychiatry’s domain; declaring them off-limits would eliminate the field. Many will recall how, in the 1990s, an accusation of parental sex abuse of children was deemed unquestionable by the solipsists of the “recovered memory” craze.

You won’t hear it from those championing transgender equality, but controlled and follow-up studies reveal fundamental problems with this movement. When children who reported transgender feelings were tracked without medical or surgical treatment at both Vanderbilt University and London’s Portman Clinic, 70%-80% of them spontaneously lost those feelings. Some 25% did have persisting feelings; what differentiates those individuals remains to be discerned.

We at Johns Hopkins University—which in the 1960s was the first American medical center to venture into “sex-reassignment surgery”—launched a study in the 1970s comparing the outcomes of transgendered people who had the surgery with the outcomes of those who did not. Most of the surgically treated patients described themselves as “satisfied” by the results, but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn’t have the surgery. And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, since producing a “satisfied” but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for surgically amputating normal organs.

It now appears that our long-ago decision was a wise one. A 2011 study at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden produced the most illuminating results yet regarding the transgendered, evidence that should give advocates pause. The long-term study—up to 30 years—followed 324 people who had sex-reassignment surgery. The study revealed that beginning about 10 years after having the surgery, the transgendered began to experience increasing mental difficulties. Most shockingly, their suicide mortality rose almost 20-fold above the comparable nontransgender population. This disturbing result has as yet no explanation but probably reflects the growing sense of isolation reported by the aging transgendered after surgery. The high suicide rate certainly challenges the surgery prescription.

There are subgroups of the transgendered, and for none does “reassignment” seem apt. One group includes male prisoners like Pvt. Bradley Manning, the convicted national-security leaker who now wishes to be called Chelsea. Facing long sentences and the rigors of a men’s prison, they have an obvious motive for wanting to change their sex and hence their prison. Given that they committed their crimes as males, they should be punished as such; after serving their time, they will be free to reconsider their gender.

Another subgroup consists of young men and women susceptible to suggestion from “everything is normal” sex education, amplified by Internet chat groups. These are the transgender subjects most like anorexia nervosa patients: They become persuaded that seeking a drastic physical change will banish their psycho-social problems. “Diversity” counselors in their schools, rather like cult leaders, may encourage these young people to distance themselves from their families and offer advice on rebutting arguments against having transgender surgery. Treatments here must begin with removing the young person from the suggestive environment and offering a counter-message in family therapy.

Then there is the subgroup of very young, often prepubescent children who notice distinct sex roles in the culture and, exploring how they fit in, begin imitating the opposite sex. Misguided doctors at medical centers including Boston’s Children’s Hospital have begun trying to treat this behavior by administering puberty-delaying hormones to render later sex-change surgeries less onerous—even though the drugs stunt the children’s growth and risk causing sterility. Given that close to 80% of such children would abandon their confusion and grow naturally into adult life if untreated, these medical interventions come close to child abuse. A better way to help these children: with devoted parenting.

At the heart of the problem is confusion over the nature of the transgendered. “Sex change” is biologically impossible. People who undergo sex-reassignment surgery do not change from men to women or vice versa. Rather, they become feminized men or masculinized women. Claiming that this is civil-rights matter and encouraging surgical intervention is in reality to collaborate with and promote a mental disorder.

almondcakes · 18/06/2014 13:19

I've just had a search and it would appear that India is still giving hormone therapy to gay men and the US is giving hormone therapy to intersex children to make them heterosexual as adults.

So it would seem obvious why people would consider giving hormone treatments as a cure for any kind of non conformity to be a worrying issue. I'm not sure where the parallel is to what you are saying.

kim147 · 18/06/2014 13:09

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kim147 · 18/06/2014 13:07

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almondcakes · 18/06/2014 13:05

How is it similar? Is anybody claiming that giving people hormones is an effective treatment for homosexuality?

kim147 · 18/06/2014 13:01

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SmallPress · 18/06/2014 12:49

That's pretty close, kim, to the "feminists are aligning with the religious right" slurs I'm seeing a lot elsewhere.

Do you not think that a lot of current, visible trans activism is pretty homophobic?

almondcakes · 18/06/2014 12:48

I thought the gay cure traditionally was about things like giving people surgery and hormones, compared to now when places like the Pink Practice provide counselling that respects people's identities as gay but tackles some of the psychological issues around gay identity such as societal homophobia.

I don't really know what the treatments are for trans people, but I assume it involves both counselling/therapy and physical interventions. I don't see an exact parallel.

Presumably some of the 'experts' who used to give hormones and surgery moved on to giving them to gender non-conforming people as explicit homophobia in the medical community became less acceptable and once homosexuality was no longer a crime. Or is there no link between the two areas of research and the individuals who have carried out the treatments?

kim147 · 18/06/2014 12:26

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