Traps For Women & Girls

so you want societal change,but not instigated by women or your daughters.since their is no point.but men have to change society.again emphasising female passivity

well attitudinal belief,self confidence goes a long way to challenging inequality

women just hope for societal change but not take ownership,cause their is no point

I was asking that question of sm, BTP.

You seem to be misunderstanding my answer as well. My bringing up my DDs to abhor inequality won't make a jot of difference to the inequalities that are in our society, just as my abhoring inequality won't make a jot of difference either. It only makes a difference (apart from at the personal level) if you try to do something about it.

My DDs abhoring inequality won't help them with the hand-on-arse problem, for example. I want society to change so that men don't go around doing it in the first place.

I am not saying it's a poor strategy, BTP; just a strategy which cannot be reliably replicated and so one which it would be unwise to solely rely on.

Aitch I could tell you a similar workplace story of bullying, but the bullying is being carried out by women. Can't say too much as it's ongoing. I think some institutions are just nasty, toxic places. Which doesn't mean that sexism may not play a role (or provide a narrative for the bullying) but I think sometimes it's the structure of the institution that can allow that sort of hideous bullying to take place. Having some similar problems to the one you describe with the union -who have taken the case on but seem to be lacking some gumption to follow the whole thing through - but again it's all female.

Now why these institutions become so toxic is something that interests me (especially having seen the bullying up close). I think it's something to do with size and hierarchy.

sm, what I am saying is that parental instilling of confidence is one way in which girls gain the confidence to challenge inequalities they face. This does not equate to blaming the parents, this was in response to BTP's point that she instills this in her DD- I am saying that we cannot rely on parental instilling of confidence as parents who do this are in the minority.

Rather than give girls confidence to challenge inequality -which they are lacking IME- we should be working towards oh, I don't know... Equality?

yes they will

Righty-ho.

What would you have everyone do about these issues then?

Yes, I agree SM. And most people will experience both states of mind over the course of their lives.

and equally women discussing their achievements and choices is empowering

What Len said.

I'm not sure as well how bringing up my 2 girls to abhor inequality will actually help anything. Surely me joining with others to try and lobby/agitate for change is much more likely to yield results?

For some people, talking about negative experiences they have had or negative experiences they are currently facing, and having other people agree that their perception and experience is valid, is a step towards building confidence.

well isnt you really shouldnt paraphrase or assume

given ive been contributing, and like robust discussion why on earth would i seek to censor

unless you mean your own wishes

havering is talking rubbish.

or like when op says everyone is very keen for mothers to stay at home, especially those with small children

that isnt achievable or desirable for all.nor is six figure salary

and one would hope those fortunate people,acknowledge good fortune and circumstance and act equitably to all

anyway sm, five years of rising above it, challenging it and expecting things to change (having been promised this faithfully by male boss) achieved bugger all for my friend. plus, it's tiring always being the bigger person, it wore her out.

what is havering

I took your comments about this thread being fatalistic and we should just stop whinging and get on with it etc as a sign that in your opinion we should not be having this conversation.

we seem to be at cross purposes, beertricks. it was "Well, if you're not going to rise above it where are you? Underneath, that's where" that i found glib.

i don't think anyone would argue with you, sm, about us as individuals not tolerating sexism, but it's interesting to see what might be achieved as a collective. you're not trying to argue that women are in charge of govts, banks, industry, are you? and that this is because women are less talented or capable? i don't personally see the bleating that you do on this thread, though.

Millyr - re working women, I come from a long line of working mothers myself, but the debate today is framed around personal fulfillment in wohm/sahm, not keeping a roof over one's head. There isn't, nor hasn't been much debate there, you do what must be done.

Some people are able to rise above it, by dint of their personalities etc.

Some people are not.

Should the people who are able to rise above it, say I'm alright jack and ignore all the people who do not have the same fortitude/skills etc?

It's like when Xenia says "well teh answer is for all women to have 6 figure salaries and never be dependent on a man" - good in theory - but not an option open to every single woman on the planet.

really that is fatalistic thinking.the system eill overwhelm and crush,and hand wringing it not that easy.so what is achievable then?