Traps For Women & Girls

The decision is one thing, expecting not to be judged for it is another.
Your solution is a good one ISNT, that's the kind of thing that should be fought for. Anyone can make a catsbum face at me for my choices but as long as they are not the ones drafting actual policy who cares.

That was just my example of how a conversation about one of the points raised in the OP could be useful and constructive BTW. Rather than an attempt to actually start a different conversation IYSWIM.

My response was really to goat's post which did say people had to just get on with it, that was how I read it anyway.

I also think that elephant's OP highlights many of the difficulties faced by women - in the decision that they have to make surrounding children - and the pressures that they receive from all directions.

sm I know that you wanted to go back to work full time after your child/ren (have seen your posts on the subject) and that was the right decision for you and you know your own mind and are obviously strong enough to bat away any raised eyebrows. However a lot of women do feel terribly torn, they do feel that they don;t know what the right thing is, they feel terrible guilt etc. And it's a very female problem, so it bears talking about on here.

My solution would be good quality subsidised childcare, an extension of leave after having a baby so it can be shared between both parents, and flexible working for everyone. Not sure what to do for the people who want to stay at home not thought about it but anyway. That is one of the points raised in the OP, it does bear discussion, and there are solutions (which have the happy effect of improving things for everyone, not just women), and we can all crystallise our thoughts and lobby MPs, join a march, do whatever we think will help to achieve the end that we (personally) think sounds like a good idea.

I don't really understand why others think this is a bad thing?

Feminism is about being the opposite of a victim! Recognising inequalities and uniting together to fight them, is not giving in. Burying your head in the sand however, is! How will you change anything with that attitude?

xposts

The message that I am getting on this thread from some quarters is that feminism as a group activity should not be tackling issues, issues should be tackled by the person who is directly experiencing them, and if they can't well then they need to get a grip because it's a tough old life.

That is a political view isn't it, not one relating specifically to feminism. It's a different balance of individual vs state than I personally subscribe to. It's no wonder that there is an argument, but I think it is a political argument, which is trying to be shoehorned onto this thread, which is also why people are getting their wires crossed as it's not quite fitting.

Well, I suppose there is a scale ISNT.
Your list shows how society needs to change.
Elephant's initial list was more about criticism against individuals for SAHM/WOHM, or what type of clothes you wear. Those are things which can be handled in the 'rise above it' way.

isnt you are erroneously paraphrasing.no one is saying im alright jack. there is a recognition we all have different subjective experiences and there isnt a uniform female experience

i dont recognise any of the described traps,never having described them.but i recognise that may be someone else experience.and there need to be a counter recognition that not all women experience traps or trapped

I find this "you don't have to be a victim" stuff difficult TBH. Not everyone has that strength, personality, fortitude, maturity etc to be that way.

If eg a 13yo girl is getting unwanated sexual attention and doesn't know how to deal with it then I don't think telling her to deal with it herself helps.

If eg my 3yo DD starts to think that she can't play with "boys toys" no matter how I try to persuade her otherwise, then I think it is harsh to say that is either her fault or mine. Short of moving to the outer hebrides and not allowing her to have any friends it is impossible to avoid them picking up these ideas.

If a woman is in a low paid job and finds out that the men are being paid more then is she really expected to "rise up" and take on the employer by herself?

And I don't even know where to start with saying how inappropriate that argument is for women in really dire situations elsewhere in the world.

This is why groups form to challenge society, why unions exist, why equality is enshrined in law in the UK. Because people can't do it all by themselves, all the time.

And if we never talk about things which we think are bad, then we never come together to take action.

There is a lot of very individualistic "I'm alright jack" sentiment on this thread which I think is where a lot of the argument is coming from, I wonder whether the real differences in opinion are arising from different political beliefs TBH.

Bloody hell Lenin wish I knew that this time last year.
I am only half joking, btw.

I'm a stay-at-home mother of two who has no intention of going back to work, despite having two degrees. I opted to have caesarean births. I breastfed for as long as I wanted to, then stopped when I got sick of leaking all the time and not being able to drink alcohol.

I never wear make-up unless going to a wedding, then I wear the full nine yards.

99% of the time I wear scruffy, baggy clothes and tatty trainers.

Do I feel judged? Nope. Why should I give a shit what others may or may not think of me. You don't HAVE to feel judged. You don't HAVE to feel trapped. You don't HAVE to be a victim.

Hate "got herself pregnant" as a phrase.
BUT I do think it's stupid not to take responsibilty yourself for contraception. The burden WILL fall heaviest on you, even if society was equal it would biologically. In a casual relationship you may not know the other person well enough to trust them, I definitely wouldn't leave it up to someone I didn't trust wholeheartedly to do the right thing by me.

To go back to the OP's original question of situations where you can feel doomed if you do, doomed if you don't. I think for many single women it's the politics of dating:

Why must men always make the first move vs woman who makes the first move looks desperate/like a slut.

Ditto, paying for things:
Why should men always pay? And yet if women pay, eyebrows do get raised. [DH and I definitely notice this].

I don't know what the solution is, but identifying these examples makes it easier to challenge them. And for me, thinking about what the OP said made me think of examples where I myself unwittingly fall into the trap of thinking them. Hopefully, now I won't.

btw i do think there is a difference between 'a troll' and 'a well-known mner who is trolling ie getting her kicks for the evening by being as obtuse and twisting as possible in order to wind up other mners'. and i think that is what dittany accused you of, sm.

I've just read the whole thread. HAd a LOL at the Freddy V Jason post.

So scottishmummy, you are saying that you think this thread actually harms the women's movement.

I have found, and other people have also mentioned, that since this feminist section opened up on MN they've begun to examine their lives a bit more and make small changes, which will then have a butterfly effect in society, I should imagine.

So by talking and chatting, (and I don't think this thread is a heavy topic compared to other MN topics,) you can identify issues and put a name to them, and try to work from there.

I think naming problems goes a long way to solving them. Betty Friedan's polemic, the one that began the second wave feminist movement in the US was based on "the problem with no name"

yet again, sm, that's not what i said. that's not what the thread said, and it's not what most posters said. but please, do carry on. god knows what you're getting out of it, but carry on.