Mr and Mrs John Smith

Interesting point, Pretty. I'd be horrified if a company wrote to Mrs Dhfirstname Dhsurname.

Keeping my own name has had the useful side benefit of allowing me to spot sales calls immediately when they ask 'is that Mrs Dhname?'.

I don''t think that's dreadful grumpypants... I think I can see what you mean. But then I'm usually of the opinion that a tradition originally rooted in sexism can be acceptable if its meaning shifts. E.g. being given away at the altar, I can completely see why people find it offensive, yet I also see that for some brides nowadays, most of whom have lived away from their parents and earn their own living anyway, it can be a sweet moment between father and daughter. (But I wouldn't particularly want to defend that viewpoint on this section...! Just digressing.)

It's hideous and makes my teeth itch. Thankfully nobody ever calls me Mrs DHName (apart from the copper who called round after my car was broken into - he had only spoken to DH who hadn't actually given him my name, so fair assumption) but if anyone ever addressed me as Mrs DHname DHsurname I'm afraid their letter would be going in the bin. Or returned with 'no such person' written over it.

I had to ask a temp in my office to re-write a letter once after she addressed it to Mr and Mrs John Smith and pp'd it for me - no way am I putting my name to that. Never.

Probably you are right - the only time i notice it is when Granny sends me a cheque or letter, and she is my favourite in the family, so in the same way that pan drops make me smile, this feels safe, to belong to someone - that sounds dreadful, i know.

I couldn't believe it when my mother started doing this, neither my Stepmum nor my MIL (both more conservative) ever have. My Stepmum once explained it to me though like this (again its old 19th century)

Senior wife of family (married to father or oldest son) is Mrs Surname
Wife of junior male (eg younger son)
Mrs John Surname
Widow (could be used to be Mrs Surname)
Mrs hername Surname

so its about inheritance etc. And thus is annoying crap

Actually scratch that about not knowing anyone who uses it, I've just remembered a couple of people and they are not the type to inspire warm feelings in me about courtesy and old-fashioned gentility! So yes, personal experience must have a lot to do with it...

that was in reply to grumpypants btw.

Interesting; I have to say I can't think of anyone I know who uses that form of address (well, if I do know them I don't know about it!). So I don't have any fond associations with it, no. I suppose it could also be the perceived etiquette-guide-iness of it (since that's really the only sort of context I've seen it), and I don't tend to take kindly to being told how things are 'done' by an etiquette guide. So maybe it is both feminist instincts and my natural contrary streak that makes me feel so strongly about it!

I don't like this, but I have to say, I very rarely see it applied to me as an individual. If it's used, it's when me and DH are being addressed as a collective. So we have had Chrstmas cards to Mr and Mrs A. EightiesChick, rather than Mr A. and Mrs B. EightiesChick. But I don't get cards addressed to Mrs. A EightiesChick. This is largely because I didn't change my name, too, so cards come to me in my own name!

While I don't like it, there is lots of linguistic sexism I dislike even more. I think this is one of those things that will effectively die out as greater informality becomes (even more) the norm, so you just won't have things addressed in this way at all. But it's an irritation in the meantime.

That's interesting - maybe it is one's experiences that make one feel one way or another? For me, my experience of this is my grandparents who are v old fashioned but extremeley courteous, so it's nice. Maybe if I hadn't had that, I would think differently?

See, for me, grumpypants, I don't link it to chivalrous behaviour like opening doors etc, 'the fairer sex', but to the potential other side of old-fashioned gender relations i.e. all things womanly being direspected or even held in contempt. I mean how much further away can you get from nobly cherishing 'the fairer sex' than addressing someone as Geoffrey or Roger?

I don't think I'm explaining myself well... when I even imagine being called Mrs John Smith I feel like I'm being taken down a peg or two iyswim. It makes me feel indignant. And I am all for old-fashioned 'chivalry', the last person to get remotely offended about doors held open and dates paid for by the man. It's not a feeling I'm used to, and it makes me feel glad and grateful that I haven't had to get used to it in my life.

My mum - v right on for 60 something - never accapted the "Mrs DadName Surname" thing, unitl he died, nearly 20 years ago. Now she address herself that way in his memory.

Mrs MaleName Surname = married to eldest son
Mrs MaleInitial Surname = married to second son
Mrs Surname = married to third and subsequent son.

There is something complicated about generations too.

It is archaic yes. I don;t mind though as DH and I have the same initials! We are both XY TraditionalEnglishSurname.

It is still odd to me, as I didn't change my surname until I just before DS was born - 8 years after we got married; partly because I wanted us all to have the same surname and partly because I didn;t want to land DS with ComplicatedGaelicSurname. Even so, in many circles, I am Dr BikeRunSki. I am not sure I would have been so keem to change it I could not use my maiden name legitimately in some circles.

Exactly Clary, after all before you were married you weren't known as "Miss Geoffrey Jones" or whatever your dad's name was, were you? Just because you've changed your surname doesn't mean you've changed your first name and/or gender, too!

It's only old fashioned etiquette, which is slowly dying out. I don't mind it all - it harks back to having doors opened, all that fairer creature stuff, which I can put up with every so often.

Mrs Bloke Surname - married to him/ widowed
Mrs Woman Surname - divorced from him

i have a horrible feeling that those phonecalls in my house are going to be the annoying relatives who refuse to accept my decision
[sigh]

Winds me up, especially when my nieces were addressed like this when they recently got married. But then ancient Mummytime didn't change her surname on marriage, so I'm seen as very freaky.

When I get phone calls for Mrs Husbandsname I know its double glazing or something.

I started a thread about this a while ago prettycandles.

I agree, I hate hate hate "Mrs Steve Wilkinson". My name's not Steve! I am not keen on Mr and Mrs Steve Wilkinson either, tbh and I would usually address an envelope to Steve and Diana Wilkinson which seems acceptable.

DH says his mum (chief offender) thinks that Mrs Diana Wilkinson means I am divorced.

I am Mrs Wilkinson btw, have no problem with taking DH's name, after all my name was just my dad's name...

exactly, mousy - if you've kept your own name, then they should respectyou enough (or at least show it!) to use your correct name.
all the time.

I really dont like this, especially when it comes from my bank (have complained - no answer received though).
I have kept my maiden name and am not mrs john smith...
my inlaws still adress all letters, birthday cards to me with dhs last name...no matter how often and nicely I tell them that that is not my name...

sorry, i was going to say - if the wife has her own name (or even if it's doublebarrelled, then she should be addressed as such -
Mr John and Mrs Carr-Smith.
or
Mr J and Mrs P Carr Smith (if not hyphenated
)
Mr John Smith and Ms Surname

i don't mind if it's a very formal letter and if i take my DH's surname as my own.
it says we're a family unit.

however, if you do not have your DH's surname, then it's wrong.

if they address you on your own, then proper etiquette is to call you Mrs John Smith, which in this day and age is bloody stupid.

but it's considered bad form to address a widow as Mrs Girl'sname Smith, because it suggests a bad split.
(she'd have to tell you to do that)

I hate it too. My name is not "John". I share a surname with my husband, not a first name.

JenaiMarr what you say reminds me of something I read in the Guardian recently-ish, about a mother of the bride who felt disappointed at how sexist 'traditions' were making a come-back and becoming embedded in the idea of a 'dream princess wedding'. Have to say I agreed with her.

see if i can find it on their website...

www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/may/22/wedding-dress-reception-cost-bridal

(Though actually I think widows are "allowed" to finally call themselves by their own first names, e.g. Mrs. Mary Smith, no longer Mrs. John Smith. But - as you say - bollocks to all that!)