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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet please can you update your bottlefeeding info section?

58 replies

tabouleh · 31/03/2010 21:43

Hello Mumsnet Team!

Following on from this thread about the correct guidelines for preparing formula I'd like to ask you to consider updating/expanding the bottlefeeding info section.

I am unleashing my inner interfering bossy feminist/activist part!

It is clear to me that:

  • many people do not know that formula is not sterile and that it needs to be made with water which is hotter than 70 degrees C
  • many people do not know what the guidelines are at all or just follow what they/their mother etc did
  • people who know what they are don't know the research or reason behind the guidelines and therefore dismiss them
  • people don't realise that there are some pretty good alternatives to making fresh each time and that THIS DOESN'T INVOLVE ADDING FORMULA TO COLD WATER AND HEATING UP!
  • the formula manufacturers need a kick up the arse to be pressurised to provide fuller explanations on their packaging and websites
  • the midwives/doctors and HVs also need to know

If you'd like me to have ago at drafting something then I am happy to.

Do you think we could start a Mumsnet campaign? Could we get someone on from the FSA or something.

OP posts:
tabouleh · 01/04/2010 15:51

Tee2072 I hope you haven't hidden the thread. I find it very useful to get all points of view as it draws out questions and helps me think of how best to communicate this issue.

Is powder sterile & what about the USA?

In order to address your question about the powder not being sterile and what happens in the USA.

Yes it is shocking that formula powder is not sterile. Lots and lots of people don't know about this.

I understand as Mrs Badger has said that it is unfortunately impossible to make the powder 100% guaranteed sterile, whereas cartons of liquid have been subject to the UHT process (ultra high temp).

You ask about the USA. Well formula is not sterile in the USA either. The WHO information and guidelines apply across the whole world. I don't know why the US guidelines are not in accordance with the international WHO guidelines. (It may well have something to do with the US paeds being influenced by the formula manufacturers).

The International Formula Council whose members are predominately based in the US admit on their website that "Powdered formulas are not sterile"!

What are the guidelines?

I think that the message about making the formula with hot water which is > than 70 degrees C has become confused into "do not make your feeds in advance".

Now this is because this is what the formula tins say and what some of the basic leaflets say and what HCPs incorrectly say.

What they should be saying is:

Formula powder is not sterile. In fact it sometimes contains a very very nasty bacteria called E.sakazakii. As has been mentioned above this is not your common or garden everyday household bacteria.

Scientific tests have shown that the best way to manage this risk is to make up the formula with water which is at least 70 degrees C.

See results of the WHO study here.

As most of us are aware, bacteria multiply with time and more quickly at room temperature. We can inadvertantly introduce bacteria into the milk by: unwashed hands, surfaces, incorrect sterilisation the fact that the powder has been open for a few weeks etc etc.

Thus you put these 2 points above together and you come up with the Gold Standard for preparation:

  • make each feed fresh using water which is > 70 degrees C.

Now it is at this point where lots of people panic and say "I can't do that - it's impossible".

I agree that it is very very difficult but you have options:

Using liquid ready to feed cartons. (This is what I did when DS was very young and did when out and about).

Then you have the option of boiling the kettle and storing water in a flask. This cuts down on time to boil and slightly cool the water.

Then you have the option of making in advance - YES MAKING IN ADVANCE! Fancy that - the very thing which people think is the big no no. This is actually recommended as the option when you can't do one of the above.

This is what I did when at home when DS was a bit older. I used to make a max of 3 bottles but the key thing is that I made it with water which was at least 70 degrees. I rapidly cooled and refridgerated.

I have not made these options up - they are the guidelines.

Here is the NHS leaflet.

The BIG NO NO - is do not make up formula with cool water!

Now other people have mentioned microwaves. Personally I never used them and bought into the "hot-spot" risk.

Other people have mentioned using hot water for say 4oz adding powder and then adding 3oz. I'd like to see some evidence or be persuaded that the formula can all dissolve in the smaller volume of liquid. Also if people use this method they need the cooler water to be measured accurately in order to end up with exactly 7oz liquid with 7 scoops of powder.

Additional recent info

The FSA issued a press release last month stating that:

"The Agency is reminding parents and childcarers who use powdered infant formula to use hot water to make up a feed. Formula powder isn?t sterile, so occasionally it could contain harmful bacteria, which could make babies ill. Using water that is 70°C, or higher, will kill any harmful bacteria in the powder.

In practice, this means boiling at least 1 litre of water in a kettle and leaving it to cool for no more than half an hour.

Recent research funded by the Agency has confirmed the importance of using hot water to make up powdered formula. But some parents aren?t aware of this advice and may use cold water, or boiled water that has been cooled for longer than half an hour."

The research report can be read here.

I think it is important that people understand the reason behind the guidelines and the different risks involved in different methods.

I would love for Tee2072 to let me know if I have in any way persuaded her to change her opinion based on the above.

OP posts:
geordieminx · 01/04/2010 14:55

She isnt reading the posts. People are giving her the information, and the reasons behind it.

I have no idea why things are done differently in USA, but I know how things should be done over here - if formula is made properly then any risk is irradicated. Its not rocket science.

Oh and she was the one who threw her toys out of the cot.

ScreaminEagle · 01/04/2010 14:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

geordieminx · 01/04/2010 14:44

I didnt sterilise after 6 months either Su, its the nasty little germs in formula that need to be zapped. After 6 months they usually eating cat fur/soil/shoes anyways

Slimcea · 01/04/2010 14:36

i was a shit sterliser
used the dw after 6 months
kids all alive

geordieminx · 01/04/2010 14:36

Did you not read MrsBadgers post?

"1. Formula cannot be made sterile-ly using the spray-drying method. Some bacteria, including E.sakazakii, can survive the heat and dessication, but most other bacteria cannot"

Fool

Slimcea · 01/04/2010 14:30

ah fgs get ober yourself

Tee2072 · 01/04/2010 14:29

You know what? I think I'm done, because it is obvious I am not typing in a language any of you read or understand.

Go ahead. Make a MN campaign to push the 'correct' way to make formula. But do nothing to push manufactures to make formula in such a way that it doesn't make babies sick, no matter how its made.

That obviously makes the most sense to you people.

Now where's the hide button?

geordieminx · 01/04/2010 14:06

Tee - no one is saying you have to wait 30 minutes. If you read the posts carefully you will see that it says water than has been boiled less than 30 minutes ago. So boil the kettle, allow to coil for a couple of minutes, add to bottle with powder, cool under cold water or in iced water jug - would take 15 minutes or add boling water to formula then top up to required level with cooled previously boiled water - this would take less than 5minutes - no idea where you got your hour from.

Also - as mrs B has pointed out, it is a completely different bacteria in powdered milk to that found in every day life. Yes, children are exposed to bacteria all day every day, and there is a general rule of thumb that this helps to boost their immune system but the bacteria E.sakazakii that is found in powdered milk needs to be killed in water hotter than 70deg - if it isnt then it can cause severe problems in babies - esp prem or those with weak immune systems.

At the end of the day you choose to feed your kids the way you want, just like you choose whether to put your baby to sleep on its front or back, wean at 16 or 24 weeks etc etc, but there for the grace of god, you live with the consequences of your actions.

Tee2072 · 01/04/2010 12:53

Yes, and my point, hazeyjane is still why do we allow our kids to eat this if it is so dangerous? Forget what method I or anyone else uses to make up their formula. The fact that the formula can kill is the real issue.

And that's the campaign MN should start, IMHO. Not to promote guidelines for making the formula in a safe way, but making the formula safe no matter how it goes from powder to liquid.

As I said, the US apparently has done it, so why can't the UK?

mmelindt, that does make more sense. And I'm glad your baby is okay.

hazeyjane · 01/04/2010 11:09

Tee, there have been 3 ways of making up feed mentioned on this thread -

topping up with cooled boiled water

microwaving cooled boiled water to 70 degrees, then running under cold tap to drinking temp

using ready to use cartons

I used a mix of all 3 methods to feed dd2, and she was never left for 'close(r) to an hour', once you are all set up, it doesn't take very long at all.

Whether bottles are sterile isn't the issue, the fact that there is a small chance of a baby ingesting a very dangerous bacteria in the formula is the issue. I can't remember her name, but there is someone who posts here who contracted salmonella when she was 3 months old from formula - it is rare, but it can happen.

MmeLindt · 01/04/2010 10:13

Sorry, he was 5 MONTHS not years. So used to writing 5yo as that is the age he is now.

It is not so small, the risk.

He definitely got it from the formula as he was not at that point weaned and was getting nothing else.

None of us had it so it had to have come from the formula.

MrsBadger · 01/04/2010 10:11

[food science hat on]

  1. Formula cannot be made sterile-ly using the spray-drying method. Some bacteria, including E.sakazakii, can survive the heat and dessication, but most other bacteria cannot.
  1. Most food we buy is not sterile (exceptions include eg cartons of UHT milk and tinned food). However the bacteria present do not pose a risk to healthy people with competent immune systems. Tiny babies do not have competent immune systems.
  1. Bacteria that enter the tin of formula powder after it's opened from air, fingers etc are significantly less harmful than the E.sakazakii that may have been in the tin to start with.
SilveryMoon · 01/04/2010 10:06

Tee There are ways around it though. I'm sure a PP has stated that you could have a jug of cooled boiled water in the fridge, then when feeding time comes along, you could boil kettle, pour in lets say 4/5oz of water, add in your powder, then add cooled water to make it right mix and cool the bottle.

Meglet · 01/04/2010 10:04

I agree. But the manufacturers are at fault for not explaning it properly and saying why it has to be done correctly.

By the time we were on bottles the dc's were in a strict routine so never really had any crying before the bottle was prepared as I had already done it. But heaven knows how it would work for a newborn, you'd need ready made really wouldn't you?

Tee2072 · 01/04/2010 09:59

Yes, but that's true of bottles, as well SPB. Your bottles are only sterile until you open the sterilizer. You're kidding yourself if you think they are still sterile after that. Or really, are sterile at all with a home or microwave sterilizer. Ask a scientist at what temp and how long it actually takes to sterilize something.

mmeLindt because I did the research and the probability of a child becoming sick from wrongly prepared formula is very very small. And its a guideline. It was not handed down by Moses on The Mount. And it goes totally against the other guideline, which is 'feed on demand.' If you are boiling a kettle, waiting 30 minutes for it to cool and then making up a bottle and letting it cool even further? Its not 5 minutes of a screaming baby. Closer to an hour.

And really, MmLindt, I am assuming your 5 year old was not drinking formula, so not really sure what your story has to do with the discussion, as he did not get the salmonella from formula. Although, of course, I am glad he is fine!

Anyway, I have to head to the supermarket so I may get behind. I'll be back though!

SPBInDisguise · 01/04/2010 09:43

a great big tub of formula will only be sterile until the seal's broken. So it would need to be in individual sachets

MmeLindt · 01/04/2010 09:42

And, I would be very pleased if MN could help highlight this problem.

nowherewoman · 01/04/2010 09:41

When I was buying powdered formula about a year ago, it was mentioned on some brands of formula but not others, so I only knew about it because I happened to buy a certain brand. I never intended to use formula so knew nothing about it, and because I was so upset about having to use it, I couldn't have looked at the breast and bottle feeding section on here

MmeLindt · 01/04/2010 09:40

Tee
If you know that there is a danger, even a very slight one, why do you not follow the current guidelines?

I understand your point, and hope that someone knows the answer to why it is not possible to make sterile formula, but at the moment the situation at the moment is such that it is dangerous to make up a bottle with cooled water.

My son had salmonella when he was 5yo and I can assure you that five minutes of screaming child while waiting for a bottle to cool is much preferable to that.

He was lucky, I did not wait for days thinking it was "just a bug", I went straight to the doctor who tested and prescribed antibiotics.

You can do half boiling and cooled water, it is very easy once you get the hang of it and your DS will not have to wait any longer than at present.

SilveryMoon · 01/04/2010 09:36

I think the manufacturers have done their bit by supplying clear instruction on the tin though haven't they?
They tell us how to prepare their product, if we choose to ignore that, that isn't their fault is it?

SPBInDisguise · 01/04/2010 09:31

But the buggy was the same principle - could damage if not used properly.

Tee2072 · 01/04/2010 09:28

My point, silverymoon, is that why do we allow the manufacturers to sell something that can kill our children?

We had a huge outcry over a snipped finger from a buggy a few months ago. And yet we regularly feed our babies something that could kill them if not properly prepared?

Its ludicrous!

SPBInDisguise · 01/04/2010 09:27

Tee - I assume the formula could be made sterile while it's sealed in the packet but that means it would only be sterile for the first feed. Unless they could create sterile 'single feed' sachets - is that what you meant? Would be a lot of packaging though

Lulumaam · 01/04/2010 09:12

cartons of formula are good for when you cannot wait for the kettle to boil and have a newborn or growth spurt and have no idea when the next feed might be

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