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dear MN HQ could you please be so kind as to explain to me publicaly why you allow thread like the super race one

207 replies

saint2shoes · 24/01/2009 11:04

to continue? IMO it has some very offensive posts on it, but you still have not pulled it.

OP posts:
PlainOldPeachy · 27/01/2009 12:11

Mindaline thank yu

but you are not a tosser; a tosser is someone who refuses to change their opinions even when challenged and given alternative.

You were developing a viewpoint- nothing more.

Don't think badly of yourself.

mindalina · 27/01/2009 12:07

Ok well, this is a scary thing for me to post as I feel (quite rightly tbh) like an utter twat for ever having had this opinioin. (I know it's slightly off-topic as well)

But I am one of those stupid, ill-informed people who previously assumed disability = pain and suffering.

I always assumed I would abort a baby that would have any sort of 'life-limiting' disability.

I assumed I would rather be dead than disabled.

I think it is an ignorance thing. I have never had much contact with anyone with any sort of disabilities.

All of you here who are coping with disability in one way or another, be it your own disability or your child's disability, have shown me up to be a bit of a tosser as far as my (previous!) opinion on this matter goes, and I am truly very grateful for having my opinion changed in this way.

I'm seriously quite ashamed to admit to this, but I sort of want you to know that you are informing people and changing opinions, so all these posts are not wasted effort, iyswim?

amber32002 · 27/01/2009 12:02

By Monkeytrousers at 9.57:

"Amber, no one wishes you didn't exist"

Alas, not so.

Examples from the super race thread:

"I'm thinking that breeding out illness and disabilty is a great thing. ?

?In societies the weak are left to die. ?I don't think the value is as high in economic terms certainly. ?it's not such an effective child if it can't see or hear. It won't keep a family so easily. It wont' be so easy to do things with it that you might have wanted to do?.

" i think the UK would be better off if few children with disabilities were born and also it would be nicer for children too?. I don't want them educated to think it's just as good to have a deaf child or child without legs who are just different?."

"Yes I'm saying we are better off if people aren't deaf or disabled. ?if we can procure they are never created then that's a good? ?

etc etc

Monkeytrousers · 27/01/2009 11:36

Got a deadline today but am not ignoring you Peachy and Lenin. Speak soon

PlainOldPeachy · 27/01/2009 11:36

God I talk Bollocks [busk]

I'd go back to my knitting but I fucked that up too

PlainOldPeachy · 27/01/2009 11:31

MT I WILL look at those links later (have a 2 minute MN window whilst ds3 who is skiving was sent home from school is using his potty LOl; but can I without being antagonistic haul you up on this:
'They need your help in getting the positive message about disablity over to the mainstream. People without imparments or family members with imparements just have other things to do with their time'

COz sometimes the very people who are expected t do this work just can't- we've got too much on! There's a reason we get carers allowance etc and that because compared to the other famillies we usually even more to do with our time; plus the general constant sleep deprivation and wory that being an SN arents carries with it. SOmetimes we can't be the educators or the rational ones. Sometimes all w care about is sleep (specifically today fopr me- hourly all night, had all 4 in my bed in the end). We can go about teaching and sharing and that's fab but sometimes we can't.. Sometimes we're regular aprents with too much on our plates IYSWIM?

Actually that has been a side effect of some of these thteads: I found today I needed a rant in SN about generally being exhausted etc and I can't, because I worry that people will see it and not read it in context but as evidence that having a child with SN ruins your life (threads relating to an article claiming that were on a few weeks ago) or my life would have been better if screening had allowed me to abort (even though I never would have). I worry there's a Mum making that decision today about whether t terminate and who will never have met a person with the condition her child has, only read my message about how shattered I am....

I guess that in a nutshell is where it comes to for me. I did say it on the original thread but it got buried:

I am pro screening but only if people are enabled to meet people with sn (not just in school integration because that often is counter productive when it fails, but in social sits, hobbies, inter school events that I never see here certainly) from ayoung age so that people can learn the positives, and also HP's reduce rpessure on aprents to take action if screening comes back positive- the pressure I was put ounder when ds3's bloods came back high risk DS was very intense. that's wrong IMO; parents should be left to choose for themselves and offered genuinely impartial advice if they ask.

From my own experience there was a child in my calss with severe CP and taht totally normalised SN for me. But of course he ahd adequate support to maximise his own chances too: if he;d been left alcking a 1-1 it would have had the reverse effect perhaps? Which is an efect of alck of support really whci seems to be growing now (only seen an overview of SS review out today but that said less poelpe qualified for support- I know we don't so lots of left-t-cope people out there)

Anyway back to the waffling again and ds3 is back for his adored PC!

I'm not of the get rid of threads camp tbh: wouldn't have done my whole uni time if I hadn't have beleived education changes things (albeit that racism / inter religious tolerance) but I think MN has a too black and white attitude. I don't think the phrase super race should have been allowed to sdtand without MN requesting (and publishing) confirmation that the OP knew the history of the phrase. If she didnt they should perhaps have asked her to modify that. the title 'AIBU is thinnking that screening would give people more chance to reduce the suffering of the diabled' would ahve spraked debate: super race is a phrase inextricably linked to eugenics and the whole Nazi usage. That may be a shame but that's reality. You can't really expect people to read it without thinking back to a time and country where disability was a reason to kill a person (isn't there a memorial service this week in bristol for the other- than- Jewish groups targeted by the Nazi regime btw?)

There is a palce for debate but that has to be used with balance and consideration rememberingt hat we are not nameless PC's but real people on the end of these computers.

Which makes me think of another thing: if we believe that racism and disablism are equally damaging (and I do) we should at least consider that a thread about removing black people using the phrase super race would be possibly illegal under the Racial and Religious Hatred Bill (2005); until disabled people have similar protection we will always be on alert and feel that ourselves or our loved ones are a less- cared for group at risk in society. Debate is good but only in a protected environment with rules: there do not seem to have been any rules or restrictions in place here. Too worried about whther someone is a Rev even though nobody is harmed perhaps? It can feel like this.

Anyway a prediction: the SN crowd will be alienated and then a hge amount of shred info lost. And it would be wrong to ask poeple to keep posting for educations sake if it diorectly ahrms their own feelings and even upsets them.

That's just a guess mind, nothing more.

2shoes · 27/01/2009 11:08

Mt to be fair Onegar is not struggling with a a decision, she is making a statement about a hypothetical situation, there is a big difference.

LeninGrad · 27/01/2009 10:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LeninGrad · 27/01/2009 10:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Monkeytrousers · 27/01/2009 09:57

Amber, no one wishes you didn't exist. I'm really sorry.

Lenin - I think that's a prime example of jumping to the worst conclusion about people on here. I really don;t see what you hope to get from asking such a personal question. And like I said, what people think they would do logically in an abstract situ, is often very different to their emotional response in that situation.

That is why I think we should offer help and respect to all women struggling with such a desicion, whatever her final choice is.

LeninGrad · 27/01/2009 09:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TotalChaos · 27/01/2009 08:29

monkey - will have a look at those films you link to.

TotalChaos · 27/01/2009 08:28

how very unfortunate Amber. Hope you feel better soon.

2shoes · 27/01/2009 08:27

thant is really sad, what a shame that it comes to this

amber32002 · 27/01/2009 06:28

Mumsnet have suggested I take break from posting to see if I can recover a bit.

2shoes · 26/01/2009 22:34

no I will watch, but have to be quiet at the moment so will wait until I can listen.

Monkeytrousers · 26/01/2009 22:22

Thanks 2shoes. Any support is appreciated. They really need to get viewing figures up so they can demonstrate to TV comissioners that there is an audience for this kind of stuff.

Even of you just click on them - you don't have to watch them all - but obvioulsy it would be good if you could

2shoes · 26/01/2009 22:20

MT I will watch those links tomorow when I can have the volume on, sounds interesting.

Monkeytrousers · 26/01/2009 22:13

I agree Onager. Many posts seemed to be reactions to interpretations of what was being said rather than what was being said - along with all the 'thin edge of the wedge' talk. Yes, its been noted, lets keep our eye open for that, but lets also move on into more positive territory. There's a danger that all this thread may do is scare people off from discussing things and asking questions for fear of being called a nazi eugenicist.

The OP's opinion was put in its place. That was good.

Monkeytrousers · 26/01/2009 22:05

The films up for contest at San Fransisco are 'Nuts for Pudding','Cared Witless', 'A Quarter of the Lot' and 'Stranger Hero'. Nuts and Quarter have already won many awards around the world at disablity film festivals.

They are all no more than half an hour long, but even close friends of mine get annoyed when I ask them to make time to watch becasue 'we all have busy lives'..

Shoot Your Mouth Off

Monkeytrousers · 26/01/2009 22:04

Peachy, I am not saying it is equivalent. And by plain human empathy I have no problem knowing that 'these' people are beloved of their parents, just as any child is.

I actually don't think that this is becoming a no win subject for the SN group, though. There will be more people reading this thread than joning in. Planting a seed in someones mind who is a bit intimidated by the whole discussion, but non the less can hear all sides, is the best we can hope for - and it does work.

Conflating the argument into good vs bad doesn't help, I believe. That's just my opinion. As Mn said, this is a important discussion for our age, and it will happen whether we like it or not. maybe we just need to be cleverer in getting the positive message across. Arguing with idiots never works. As you know

I've posted links to numerous films made with people who have imparements. They're made by a small group of people, some of whom are disabled themselves, who care passionatley about promoting positive messages about disablity. They are pioneers who have won awards all around the world. They will be at the San Fransisco disablity film festival in the beginning of Feb to pick up another award. What they do not make are patronising films about 'special people'. They make them with the individuals around them, playing to their individual strenghs, to be entertaining without pulling their punches. They even produce their own soap opera. If they could get enopugh people to watch it on youtube, channel four might even give them some money for a godforasken slot on real telly - but it's a start.

But the links are always all but ignored. At some point we (general we) have to ask ourselves why that is, because we can't poke a finger at 'society' saying 'you don;t care' when even the SN community seems just as apathetic about championing cutting edge stuff when it happens. They need your help in getting the positive message about disablity over to the mainstream. People without imparments or family members with imparements just have other things to do with their time

That might fill you with fury. I hope it doesn't. I have no grudge to bear here.

I'll post the link again and if people would be so kind they will browse the years of work that has been done here.

Look up the two soap episodes too. It's called 'Hope Springs'. They are great. I hope you will end up being just as addicted to HS and Corrie. Send the links to your friends. The internet is a very powerful tool, especially for people with imparements and their carers.

Typed too much. Willshut the fick up

onager · 26/01/2009 21:39

I have talked about disability. Only a bit because early on it annoyed me that there was no real debate. Try and discuss screening and someone leaps in and says "ha! so you want to round us up and kill us all!!!!!". We even had someone's DH threaten violence if we touched his child ffs. What thread was he reading? presumably one in a parallel universe.

Then there are all the screams that we shouldn't be allowed to have opinions on it anyway.

It's a waste of time posting here really, but I will keep my opinions and express them as and when it occurs to me. I wouldn't let reminders of disability law stop me even if I did think they applied, which of course they don't.

amber32002 · 26/01/2009 21:21

They can air their views any way they like that falls within the law, Onager. That's what laws are for. They should have tried being a person with a disability reading the comments on that thread. I felt absolutely sick. If people want to debate ethics, that's fine, but just try reading some of the things that were posted on there.

I'm an adviser, not someone suing anyone. I'm not here as an official adviser, but I am a disability adviser and I'd be telling any website that there was a risk IF I were here in an official capacity. But I'm not, and I'm not trying to be other than to flag up what the current situation is. I'm sure mumsnet knew all that already. As it is, I'm here as a sad, exhausted aspie who feels like half this site wishes she'd never existed so she wasn't this huge suffering burden to society. And is sad that apparently her son is seen the same way. I have a right to an opinion too. That's mine.

onager · 26/01/2009 21:15

"harassment of someone for a reason relating to the person's disability is unlawful"

Disagreeing with someone on the subject of disability is not.

You can't tell who is disabled on here so how could it apply anyway?

I think if someone tried to enlist the aid of disability law to discourage others airing their views on mumsnet that would be pretty pathetic.

amber32002 · 26/01/2009 21:06

I've made it very clear on there that I have a disability, and stated which one. And I'd asked mumnset to keep an eye on that thread because I was worried.