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dear MN HQ could you please be so kind as to explain to me publicaly why you allow thread like the super race one

207 replies

saint2shoes · 24/01/2009 11:04

to continue? IMO it has some very offensive posts on it, but you still have not pulled it.

OP posts:
onager · 28/01/2009 22:02

In much the same terms as the friend who had the accident.

Now answer one for me. If someone is run over and permanently injured, is that a good thing or a bad thing.

2shoes · 28/01/2009 21:50

so out of interest, how would you explain dd's cp, caused at birth, to your child?

onager · 28/01/2009 21:47

If I saw a terrible accident where a friend lost their ability to walk I'd be distressed. I would wish that it hadn't happened and perhaps demand that new safety precautions were instituted. I'd say "I don't want any more people ending up like that"

He would still be my friend (why would that change?) and I'd teach the kids that they shouldn't think any less of them because of it.
I would not say "it's a good thing he was run over". If their teacher told them it was a good thing and that he was not harmed by it, "just made different" I'd be angry.

In my opinion it would be better if people were not injured by cars, drugs or accidents of birth.

wannaBe · 28/01/2009 21:14

but onager, there is a vast difference between voicing the opinion that screening for disability/illness is an acceptable practice, (I don't have to understand the view but not everyone thinks the same on these things), and voicing the opinion that the country would be a better place without disability in it, and that it would be better for non disabled children if they were not faced with people with disabilities, which are comments that appeared on that thread and have been allowed to stand.

The former is a comment based on fear of the unknown. the latter is blatant bigotry and is not acceptable.

onager · 28/01/2009 19:55

I can see how this applies to say a cinema that is required to have a ramp, disabled toilets and so on. That's perfectly reasonable.

The service Mumsnet provide (and let's remember that it's a free service. You're not paying them enough to employ disability consultants) is a space to discuss things with others. The discussion itself is 'supplied' by the other posters.

Anyone can make a homepage and then with a couple of clicks add a forum open to anyone. If it's true they must have "a disability policy based on expert advice, and basic disability training" then you will have to close down most of the internet.

Let's also remember that we're not talking about comments about disability in a cooking thread. We have people discussing disability in a thread about disability. There were bound to be opinions that differ from your own. The only way to prevent that would be to not allow any discussion of disability. For those who find certain topics very difficult mumsnet provide a hide button. People use it for example when they find news items especially distressing instead of wanting to ban the news.

You could make some kind of argument if you could show that people were posting only to insult people with a disablity,but I don't believe you can. Originally people were asked their opinions on screening and they gave them. It would have been amazing had they all had the same opinions as you and it would then have been a pointless thread anyway.

silverfrog · 28/01/2009 18:13

errr, I think you'll find people did...

KarlWrenbury · 28/01/2009 18:09

WHY NOT EMAIL THEM THEN?

amber32002 · 28/01/2009 18:09

We have a very high number of parents of children with disabilities/people with disabilities who have expressed their shock, their sadness, their astonishment, and their fear of posting on that thread/their comment that they couldn't cope with trying to post on there.

If mumsnet is about all the people on here being equal, then that wasn't achieved in this case.

sarah293 · 28/01/2009 18:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

PeachyBAHonsPRSCertOnRequest · 28/01/2009 18:02

How much does delete button cost MT? at least for the worst threads (not necessarily whole debate- what, 5 out of 1000 posts?)

Monkeytrousers · 28/01/2009 17:40

They key word in the DDA is 'reasonable'. That reasonablness needs to be based on financial viability for the business too.

LeninGrad · 28/01/2009 17:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

amber32002 · 28/01/2009 16:52

Anything I've said isn't a gauntlet, if I understand the term correctly, it's helpful advice to the best of my knowledge, which I'm sure mumsnet already knows anyway.

LeninGrad · 28/01/2009 16:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

2shoes · 28/01/2009 16:17

y KarlWrenbury on Wed 28-Jan-09 11:52:47
rather than starting a thread abotu a thread?!

I started this thread, as I had had no response from MN Hq at the time. It was also to try and find out why a thread I had started had been pulled.

amber32002 · 28/01/2009 16:16

They'd have had to - anything that says on a public message board(for example) "black people should not be born/they're not financially worthwhile" would be classed as potentially inciting race hate. Had no corrective action been taken after a complaint had been made about any such statement, the police could have been involved.

It's not about what the website wants, or what its members want, because the law isn't about personal opinion or democratic vote to see if it doesn't apply today/in this place. It's why every business in the UK needs to have really robust and clearly implemented anti-discrimination policies which are aimed at best practice and a 'can do' attitude.

LeninGrad · 28/01/2009 15:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PeachyBAHonsPRSCertOnRequest · 28/01/2009 13:25

I hope they read that!

And yes it has put me off posting anything 'negatiove' (ie the stuff I need help with) about ds1 on MN in case people use it to strengthen their ideas of Sn as a negative.

So it has reduced access to me I guess.

amber32002 · 28/01/2009 13:20

OK, I can try. But I am NOT a lawyer and I'm only saying this from my own personal experience and to the best of my knowledge from conversations with top lawyers and the government recently, not as an adviser here.

First of all, the general 'spirit' of the disability discrimination legislation is to make places reasonably accessible for people with any form of disability.

That means that each service provider has to plan in advance for how they are to cater for each type of disability, even if someone with that disability isn't there at the time.

And that planning should include a disability policy based on expert advice, and basic disability training so that all staff or people managing the environments have a good understanding of how people with different disabilities can best access not only the space, but any conversations taking place that are part of that service.

So, on a website, the space we're accessing is the mumsnet website. It should be DDA compliant with a high W3C rating allowing people with visual disabilities, epilepsy or an ASD (for example) to use things in an easy way, and preferably with a minimum of scrolling to help those with mobility difficulties. It could well be.

That's the background.

Against that background, the day to day activity of this service is parents communicating with each other and accessing information or taking part in debates on popular topics. Some have disabilities and therefore may need a degree of support, help or assistance to be able to join in effectively. My disability is one in point. A 'reasonable' amount of help, not 'every bit of help imaginable'. It's to be negotiated, discussed, planned for. My trouble is that I can write in a very lucid way, but have a brain that can 'cut out' or go into a terrible panic if faced with too much stress/personal attacks and which leaves me potentially very vulnerable in a hostile environment. I can avoid many of them, but a debate about whether we should be permitted to be born at all is not one I feel we should be excluded from by any comment saying "well just don't post there if you can't handle the heat" or similar thinking (not that this is what was said, I'm just trying to illustrate a point). It just needs careful management. I do a lot to handle my own risks, but I do need a degree of help sometimes.

The need to offer help/assistance comes into effect when someone says "hello, I have this disability, can you help me please". The service provider can go to the charity for that disability and get some handy quick tips for what to do, or what not to do. That shows a professional attitude to being asked.

The DDA also says that service providers must not provide a lower standard of service or to provide the service in a worse manner.

"Examples of a lower standard of service:
? making you wait until everybody else has been served
? giving you less choice about when you can use a service.
Examples of a worse manner of service:
? insulting or humiliating you because of your disability
? drawing unnecessary attention to the fact you are disabled"

In consultation with the government Minister recently, he made it quite clear that he intends these laws to be used to offer as equal a 'playing field' as possible for all those with a disability, in every part of life.

So, we can see from the comments made by parents with SN so far that many, many of them were frightened of posting on that thread, were really worried about some of its content. That's a big Red Flag in terms of deciding whether something is potentially insulting or humiliating for those taking part in the debate.

Would a more vulnerable person with a disability be comfortable taking part? Is anyone supporting them? Is there editorial control that reminds people of the need for respect so that they can show that they have acted responsibly? If someone does press the 'panic' button, as I did, and asks for help or an element of editorial overview to ensure it remains accessible for me and others like me, is the help reasonably tailored to that disability and fairly prompt and appropriate? Remember the aim is to enable the person with the disability to participate in what should be a reasonably respectful environment for that disability. I know that I was scared absolutely stiff, and I've had to rely on autism support to get me through the last few days.

Not every message thread can be respectful. It is not a question of squashing freedom of speech or making everyone totally politically-correct and more polite than the Queen herself. But ones on disability issues, where those with disabilities read them and note the comments, always end up saying a lot about the message board in question.

An overall 'barrage' of negative comments going on for day after day about the worth of those with disabilities can be a hostile and intimidating environment that stops those with a disability from participating and their voices being heard. It does not have to relate to a particular sentence said at a particular time - it can relate to lots of incidents over time, and it can be an overall picture of how the website in question tries to help 10% of the population to join in.

That's the overview.

Unfortunately, many service providers have a "knickers to you" approach so far. I'm sure that's not the case with mumsnet. It makes sense for websites to work with those that want to help them do their best for those with a disability so that it is indeed an equal place for people to be. After all, people with disabilities are customers too.

I'm absolutely sure mumsnet do many things right in this respect. But this particular thread needed a bit of editorial help, and so did I.

PeachyBAHonsPRSCertOnRequest · 28/01/2009 12:40

Ah no technically this is a thread about an e-mail to MN!

Fio you're wuite right of copurse, esp. on two counts- that Sn groups (and I nly use that pgrase for want of a better one) views vary massively: I know of one person who would always tst for future ASD, me in the middle and some on the no tests whatsoever side. It's important to recognise we're linked by the SN rather than anything else.

Also that it would be great if Amber could show how those quotes breech DDA becuase the act is widely under implemented and maybe we all need to start reversing that....?

KarlWrenbury · 28/01/2009 11:52

rather than starting a thread abotu a thread?!

FioFio · 28/01/2009 11:22

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Monkeytrousers · 28/01/2009 10:54

Yes I know what you mean. I don't think it's a big issue at grassroots as it were, but in councils they have to get it right. I don;'t know whether its a good or bad thing. The point about it making people scared of talking about it is a good one.

I doubt very much most reasonable people mind the term 'dsabled' - and its much better than 'retard', 'invalid', 'mong', 'spaka', etc.

Like Peachy says, you just do the best you can.

Lemontart · 28/01/2009 10:21

Peachy - thank you for being honest! It is reassuring to read that people with more personal experience find the constant pc language issue not always easy either.
You are right, I should not let it affect my natural behaviour with others just because I worry about my ignorance regarding language.

You have given me a little more confidence in all of this and not to expect people to be inflexible or lack understanding themselves.

Someone earlier mentioned feeling better informed thanks to mumsnet and threads like these. I totally agree.

PeachyBAHonsPRSCertOnRequest · 28/01/2009 10:13

Yep that doesn't upset me at all tbh.

At risk of outing myself and being banned from MN I use he's disdabled a lot; I don't have the energy r wherewithal to assess everything I say!. And i'm not going to be angry at someone who uses a term inadvisedly unless perhaps they should know better- if you workedas a supporter for a child with DS and said 'I workk with a dows' I'd be very ; if you said 'there's a downs kid in ds's class' with no knowledge of the two term differences I might mention it but no more.

IYSWIM?

Just do the best you can but FGS don't let it stop you talking to poeple or cause you worry!

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