If you (still) feel the need to discuss Moldies [part 2]

I dont disagree with you LM, but for me it is more than that. Not knowing that you are being judged is one thing, but not what the judgement criteria is and that criteria itself is not knowable and itself hinges on a poster being 'known' is off. It implies a hierarchical system that says that if a poster maintains their posting ID then they can be validly judged on the basis of the 'friends' they have made and the 'quality of thier posts'.

As I have said, i do not decide to use MN in that way for my own reasons. Does that put me to the bottom of the 'judgement' heap?

Actually, now i think about it, i suppose many of us feel that we have been MNs for a long time or a short time and it truly felt like Judgement Day came and were not given the opportuntiy to account for ourselves. Espescially those who have had others advocate of their behalf, for the verdict to be and not be told: " No, thou shalt not arise to Mouldies. Thou shalt remain a MN. Thou ist not (yet) worthy". And to push that analogy further, many of those in Mouldies are their by virtue of 'breaking bread' with certain others and not straying too far from the accepted path.

Hey I luuuurve MN and all that, and not giving Mouldies God-like status, but d'you know what i mean?

Oh and i forgot to say earlier that i actually used to enjoy threads that said: "Has anyone seen Blah Blah poster?" And then the thread would ascend into an update about what the person was doing and get all nostaligic in parts. I never (obviously) had such a thread about myself, but i found it really warming to know that MNs cared about each other in that way. Dont think such threads will be taken in the way that they were at the moment. It almost feels like people have a kind of fear about asking for other people, in case they are on the 'other site'. Shame.

hunker - I think that one can easily come to a conclusion about the ethics of the basic structure of something in one day. Or indeed, in five minutes, as one MN-er did (whom I should check with before outing... )

Can't be arsed to wade through all these threads again, but why doesn't Moldies open their membership to those with 5+ years posting history on MN, a name and address and a membership fee? That way you exclude random trolls, upset nobody and keep it small.

"
And you know what? Justine and Carrie are FINE with Moldies existence and have said so on several occasions."

We keep hearing this, Hunker - but I think there is a difference between J and C being gracious and being "fine" with it.

The post from Justine on the first of these threads specifically said that she had been very upset, but had come to terms with it.

MP hasn't said it perfectly at all, because she was there for ONE DAY. Would you trust someone to know exactly how a group of more than 100 people thought in a day? Or would you think "She saw a snapshot and placed her own interpretation on it, based upon preformed opinions of the people whose replies she read"? Which is more logical?

i don't think anymore can be said about this...morningpaper has said it all perfectly.

i can't see how the moldies site will last though? how many people are on it 100? 200 maybe?..in time some of them will leave..who will they be replced by?....all the people they want are already there.....they can't keep hanging around on mn looking out for new people to nab...because now it's all out in the open they could be recruiting spys?

"taking the "top 150 most popular" Mumsnetters across to the new board"

MP, where was it said that this was what was happening? Don't put it in quotes, like it was the stated aim of the board fgs when it was not.

And you know what? Justine and Carrie are FINE with Moldies existence and have said so on several occasions. Perhaps we could ask them to post excerpts from emails Justine's sent on here - it might make their position MUCH clearer and stop the "I feel hurt on behalf of MNHQ" stuff that's coming up again and again. I shan't be posting them (obviously) - but I do think it might be nice if Justine or Carrie posted again to clarify their position, along the lines of what's been said to numerous Moldies.

Welliemum,
"That has its own ethical implications, about freedom of speech and association. Nobody has the right to control how other people communicate off board."

No, you misunderstand me welliemum - I was not suggesting that the only ethical position was for Moldies to have been prevented from setting up/joining the site.

I was exploring whether the truly ethical position would have been for Moldies to have restrained themselves from setting up/joining the site (since the nomination system could only ever be the lesser of two evils)

Do you see the difference?

the bit i just can't get past is being nominated and vetted without knowing about it and being judged by my peers on criteria i Knew nothing about.

if i feel bleargh about that, and i was accepted, how do people who were vetoed feel?

that is the stikcing point

i have no problem with mouldies as a group or individually but it makes my skin itch that i was judged without knowing about it

I agree Buda - google makes me feel quite vulnerable really.

I can't quite get over the avatar thing.

Why is that?!!

Aitch - thank you so much for being so clear about what actually went on/goes on. It is a lot clearer to me now.

I understand why some Moldies felt the need for somewhere else - Cod and MB for instance. And I am sad that that is the case and the reasons for that need are horrible for both of them.

I am sad that LL has gone because of the whole furore. Also sad that others have too. That is a real shame.

However I do feel a bit odd that there was some discussion of the Xmas meet up. I went along and met some lovely MNers. Came back on here and there was obv disucssion on MN as always and photos were on Facebook. All fine. To know that there was somewhere else that there was some discussions going on feels a bit weird. But I don't really know why as I suppose it is a bit like going to a party with friends and then meeting up with one or two afterwards and discussing the party etc. Which happens all the time in RL.

I do agree with those who would like MN to not be as Googleable though. No idea how we go about that though.

Yep, MorningP put her finger on it there. And she and OBM have behaved and posted with integrity throughout.

Whatever they're putting in the water over There... MP and OBM must have taken their own drinks!

This whole thing has made me feel uncomfortable and paranoid even though the subject has not affected me directly. The media attention has made me feel a bit vulnerable and now i'm not sure what to do.
I love mumsnet but i'm worried.
Help me stealth.

Thanks stealth. I am a bit stupid about tecknollogy.

MP has grasped it by the balls as usual.

yes FA, you can have group conversations

I think morningpaper has the crux of the matter there. People are trying to justify the unjustifiable and that is what is making this thing run and run, because it is very hard to let go when things are not "right".

And I also agree with Seeker in that I am very surpised at some of the posters who have become members of the moldies board and all that seems to entail. It just does not fit with the image I had of them I suppose!

Welliemum - I think the 'call to MSN' thing was damn rude all along, this is I suppose an extension of it.

Not that I really know what MSN is. I have done it once briefly when someone told me how to join but deleted it long ago. Can you have like 3 way discussions on it then? I thought it was one to one.

Yes I think you're right MP.

Fio - what's it like over there?

Sorry about yr job btw.

Well, if people are leaving MN permanently that's their choice. There's no moral obligation for anyone to post on MN.

In exactly the same way, if people want to flit between MN and another board or MSN etc, that's their choice too. There's no moral obligation to be eternally faithful to any website.

I think it's time for me to leave this discussion. To me, the only serious issue here is that some people feel very hurt. However that's been fairly extensively discussed and it seems that nothing anyone can say further will repair that hurt; so I think ongoing discussion is only going to make things worse rather than better and I'm not keen to join in.

p.s. And by saying that, I am not having a go at anyone who is using the moldie forum. I am just saying that there is a logical inconsistency in the position, and it doesn't matter how many times you state your opinion, it isn't going to change that logical inconsistency, which is why people are going to find it frustrating, and keep posting and keep posting...

I think there are several issues here but the Moldies just cannot win the argument because their position is untenable.

Yes it was FINE if it had been a "small group" of a few friends (which is what I said to Twiglett when I left) but reproducing the structure of Mumsnet, taking the "top 150 most popular" Mumsnetters across to the new board, and even setting up a "Tech" (WTF? That is like setting up a 'Justine'?) is just OFF. No, it's not illegal, but it's just NOT CRICKET. If you had desperate needs that MN weren't meeting, you could have requested that MN looked into changes such as off-board messaging or private topics. Not a brain-drain of the most experienced and prolific posters, which is effectively what it was.

You also can't expect people to take an apology seriously, when you are continuing to do the thing that is causing hurt that that you are apologising for. It's not really an apology, is it?

And you also can't say on the one hand "I need to stay on Moldies because that's where lots of my old, good friends are" while maintaining the position that Moldies shouldn't hurt anyone, because this is just about chatting on talk forums and not about proper relationships. Those two arguments are not logically compatible.

MN is much nicer if you stay OFF this thread btw. But I suspect this thread will run and run I'm afraid.

A private, one off, unplanned conversation between two people and a new board set up for the chosen to post?

The thing that doesn't add up though - if you think about the people who are moldies and how they were on mumsnet - they are all on the whole nice. How can they have all undergone a personality change and have become these horrid people who have dicussed us all in detail and 'found us wanting'.

Knowing some of the personalities involved the 'it just evolved as was never meant to upset people' line fits much better than the 'we wanted a private place for the cream of mumsnet to post and you aren't on the list' line.

But then I am the naive one here aren't I.

welliemum-I am surprised you cannot see the difference.

Moldies is a whole different board and many people seem to have left MN entirely in order to post there. (Some are still posting here, but many are not). A bit different to popping off board for a quick chat.

It's interesting to me that the "Oi! MSN - now" thing has been going on for years, quite openly, ie you could see posters leaving a thread to talk somewhere else.

I don't know what was discussed as I was never invited, and I can't say it bothered me tbh.

So what I'm wondering is what's the difference this time? Why is this threatening to tear MN apart, when people have been talking privately off board - and making no bones about it - for years?